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jakD
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Re: The Bible. Infallible?
The 2nd Timothy verse can be construed many ways, as with all scripture. From Wikipedia: "C H Dodd wrote that the passage should be rendered differently so that it reads "Every inspired scripture is also useful..." and this translation has been included in the New English Bible and Revised English Bible translations which are accepted by many mainstream Christian denominations. St Jerome's Vulgate translation, one of the best attested early translations of the Bible, uses a similar form of words, and this is a valid interpretation of the Greek. Different groups understand the meaning and details of "inspiration" in different ways."
I don't "deny biblical teaching." I believe that the Bible is Inspired by God, is God's word. I just don't agree that it is perfect, or without error. You claim that by stating the bible isn't perfect, I'm rejecting it. My view of the Bible isn't "changed, perhaps so drastically that there (is) no Christian faith to embrace." You're giving me the "all or none" argument that I constantly hear. I can believe in Christ and accept Him as my Lord and Savior, and still have a more liberal view of scripture. This may not jive with your view, but that's fine. I don't go around abrasively stating, "How can you simply believe everything in the bible without question?" I accept that view as yours, and have my own. As for how few or how many errors, I have no idea. As for my understanding of Christ, I know that He loves me and forgives me; I have felt His grace; I have accepted Him as my Lord and Savior. I believe He was sent here, died for my sins, and was resurrected. I believe He was all God and all man. One could argue that it isn't right for me to believe this part of scripture, and feel that the Bible is still not perfect, but oh well. I suppose that's between God and I. How much more correction does my understanding need, in your opinion?
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Jan/31/2008, 5:51 pm
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EME015
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Re: The Bible. Infallible?
quote:
jakD wrote:
The 2nd Timothy verse can be construed many ways, as with all scripture. From Wikipedia: "C H Dodd wrote that the passage should be rendered differently so that it reads "Every inspired scripture is also useful..." and this translation has been included in the New English Bible and Revised English Bible translations which are accepted by many mainstream Christian denominations. St Jerome's Vulgate translation, one of the best attested early translations of the Bible, uses a similar form of words, and this is a valid interpretation of the Greek. Different groups understand the meaning and details of "inspiration" in different ways."
I don't "deny biblical teaching." I believe that the Bible is Inspired by God, is God's word. I just don't agree that it is perfect, or without error. You claim that by stating the bible isn't perfect, I'm rejecting it. My view of the Bible isn't "changed, perhaps so drastically that there (is) no Christian faith to embrace." You're giving me the "all or none" argument that I constantly hear. I can believe in Christ and accept Him as my Lord and Savior, and still have a more liberal view of scripture. This may not jive with your view, but that's fine. I don't go around abrasively stating, "How can you simply believe everything in the bible without question?" I accept that view as yours, and have my own. As for how few or how many errors, I have no idea. As for my understanding of Christ, I know that He loves me and forgives me; I have felt His grace; I have accepted Him as my Lord and Savior. I believe He was sent here, died for my sins, and was resurrected. I believe He was all God and all man. One could argue that it isn't right for me to believe this part of scripture, and feel that the Bible is still not perfect, but oh well. I suppose that's between God and I. How much more correction does my understanding need, in your opinion?
If I'm understanding you right what you're saying is that you believe the Bible is definitely inspired by God...it's just that you have a hard time accepting the fact that over years and years of translations and 'versions' that something wasn't "lost in translation". That it's possible with the ESV and the NIV and the NLT and the etc etc etc that between all of the different versions, something could've been translated wrong, therefore....you have a hard time saying that the Bible is completely free of error.
Or are you saying, even in the original translation, the moment that it was written, that the original author of the book could've made a mistake when hearing God speak?
Last edited by EME015, Jan/31/2008, 11:25 pm
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Jan/31/2008, 9:03 pm
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tbone2370
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Re: The Bible. Infallible?
I have been reading this post for the a few days now and really what I find interesting is that you are asking whether or not other people believe the Bible is without error at the same time you are mentioning homosexuality. Are you trying to point out that the Bible is in error because of the people who wrote it or because of translation there are errors in the Bible making homosexuality ok?
The Bible is clear that homosexuality is a sin, however, is it "worse" than any other sin, no. And in my opinion gay marriage would not ruin the sanctity of marriage. Adultery, pornography and divorce is ruining the sanctity of marriage and is destroying families. The Bible and Jesus warns believers about pride and greed more than homosexuality and in America materialism and greed is running ramped throughout the church. So, I do agree with you that people pick and chose which sins are worse, but how does that make the Bible fallible?
Last edited by tbone2370, Jan/31/2008, 11:17 pm
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Jan/31/2008, 11:15 pm
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jakD
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Re: The Bible. Infallible?
I chose homosexuality as an example because I feel it is a divisive and hot-button issue, always taken out of context. Like, I was tattooing a client recently that said "Homosexuality is just plain wrong. It's an abomination man...says so in the Bible!" But when I asked where in the Bible he's talking about, he didn't know. I also reminded him that the Bible says eagles (which just so happened to be part of his tattoo design) and owls are abominations. It's also another subject that I want to cover here, but that's for another post I'm working on (which I hope receives feedback as well).
Yes, I believe much was lost or misconstrued in translation, etc. What was considered apocraphyl or biblical canon, chosen as authoratative, and why, etc. But what I'm saying I believe is that the Bible and the books contained in it, from its inception, are not perfect, or free of error. I believe it to be inspired by God, yes, but not without error.
Man, (tbone) I want to elaborate more on the important issues you brought up about greed in the church, and homosexuality. It's hard for me to not go into it now, but I want to devote a separate subject/post to it.
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Feb/1/2008, 2:27 am
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Forgivenchild
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Re: The Bible. Infallible?
jakD,
I disagree with you,but that dose'nt change the fact that we have both have been saved by grace. I believe that the Bible (original manuscripts) is without error becaeuse that's were the evidence takes me through much study. A book you might be interested in is Lee Strobel's The Case for Christ/The Case for Faith, 2 Volumes in 1. I do feel very strongly about this topic but I did come to realize through the Spirt's guidence that there are somethings that I believe that I'm wrong about. If I was right about everything that I believed then I would be perfect. Christ is the only one who can make that claim. Were not going to argee on everything and that's ok. As believers we are part of the body and we need each other to help each other grow and serve. On a side note I read more than one translation and they use "inspired" and I like that. Although our english word "inspire" carries the idea of breathing into something.But this word tells us that God who breathed out something, namley,the Scripture.To be sure, human authors wrote the texts, but the Bible orginated as an action of God who breathed it out.
Enjoy the journey,
David
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Feb/1/2008, 10:03 am
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jakD
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Re: The Bible. Infallible?
Yes brother, I believe you brought home what I feel is the most important point. We are all saved by grace. I see things I disagree with in the church all the time. Like the prosperity church service I visited, or a minister in my home town thrice divorced, who openly told gay members that there was no way they would feel "welcomed or comfortable" in his church. Sometimes I feel that the body is sicker in certain areas than others. I'm sure there are southern baptists churches (not to knock them...this is how I was raised and there's plenty of good ones out there) who would go so far as to claim that a "Christian Tattoo Association" is the work of the devil within the church (which is pretty much how I felt after leaving the prosperity church service I attended). But like you said, that's not for me to judge. I pray that God leads me to the answers I seek on a daily basis. I work on keeping my own house in order, and hopefully by doing this I can witness to others along the way. We don't always agree (in fact, rarely it seems sometimes), but we share the same love for Christ, and I believe (as was mentioned) that one day we'll all be sitting around the same table, and He'll make it ALL make sense.
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Feb/1/2008, 2:20 pm
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Forgivenchild
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Re: The Bible. Infallible?
Amen!!
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Feb/1/2008, 2:30 pm
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earringfella
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Re: The Bible. Infallible?
If the Bible in your opinion contains errors, etc., where in the Bible did God (supposedly) mislead you or lie to you?
Chapter and verse, please.
---
Trust the Bible.
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Feb/6/2008, 12:56 pm
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jakD
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Re: The Bible. Infallible?
That's a loaded and confrontational question, which insinuates I am calling God a liar. It's clever, but serves no purpose.
I said that I don't believe the Bible is perfectly written by God, through men. This is a conclusion I came to after much prayer. You disagree, but this IS the answer I believe God finally helped me see.
It's really not that complicated. It's my view, you disagree with it, end of story. I can't pull some definitive portion out of the Bible to show you specifically where I feel mislead or lied to, because I don't feel God mislead me or lied to me. Those were your words, and they're the sort of words that I feel create dissension and discord among Christians. You may think that I hold a view that is radical or isn't Christian; I see people do things all the time in Jesus' name that makes me nothing short of furious sometimes. But whether you agree with my view or not, at the end of the day I feel we're both saved by grace in Jesus Christ.
People (conservative ministers, etc.) love to take scripture out of context and wave their fingers on issues ranging from divorce to homosexuality, tattoos to hair length. Over history scripture has been used to support slavery or deny women in the church, because "God says so...it's right here in the bible!" I could provide you with a laundry list of passages that I believe have been misinterpreted and abused, but that's missing the point, and for another topic.
Which verses do you believe support your view? These?
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth" John 17:17
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness..." 2 Timothy 3:16
Because I don't disagree with them, or feel that they necessarily contradict what I believe.
I'd love to go into it.....
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Feb/23/2008, 7:34 pm
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shihan7
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Re: The Bible. Infallible?
One big problem is that you don't want to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. So, please be careful how you phrase your reservations about scripture. You said you think you have your answer. Look up Proverbs 12:15 by yourself and also, 2Tim 3:16, "All scripture is God-breathed and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness."
Be careful partner, your "wisdom" is dangerous. What are you trying to avoid anyway? What is your underlying argument and why don't you just believe? A stiff and contrary neck with an attitude. Maybe you are a troll here to stir up strife? Why not just humble yourself and believe? Anyway, you will believe what you believe and there is nothing anyone except God can do to change that...
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Feb/27/2008, 1:31 am
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