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jakD
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Re: The Bible. Infallible?
Why is it that because my view is different than yours, I'm a "troll here to stir up strife?" Go back and read through my posts. Have I called anyone names, like "troll"? Or called someone a "stiff neck with an attitude"? Have I sunken to name calling with no explanation of my view? No, I've been respectful and articulate. What am I trying to avoid? I'm not avoiding anything. That's as pointless as me claiming that you, in your belief that the Bible is perfect, are avoiding something. People like you are what causes strife, not me. "What is your underlying argument, and why don't you just believe"??? Are you serious? I've posted my argument again and again, repeating myself several times and articulating myself as plainly as I can. Why don't I just believe? That's as pointless as me asking you, "Why don't you just believe the way I believe?" Listen to yourself.
"Anyway, you will believe what you believe and there is nothing anyone except God can do to change that..." In other words, God is the only one who can change my view to the RIGHT view, in other words, YOUR view. I would ask you to humble YOURSELF, and allow others to have different views.
The last time I checked, this was a discussion board, where Christians come to discuss things. I plan on posting many things that I want to hear differing views on, because I think this sort of dialog is important for me and others. I think this forum is great and important for people who want to learn about Christ without running into the same old pious, condemning, self righteous attitudes that has given them a bad attitude toward Christ and Christians. Thing is, you're doing just that. I would hope that regardless how much you or anyone disagrees with my view of the Bible, that people can feel comfortable coming here with their questions. My wildly different view is one thing...you may even call it blasphemous. But your attitude and name calling is what I feel truly keeps people away. In my opinion, you do a much greater disservice than I do. In witnessing to people and talking to people about Christ, I think people run from combative, name calling and self righteousness more than any other thing.
I especially liked your advice to look up the Proverbs verse. "The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that listens to counsel is wise". Thing is, I know this verse all too well. It's a fantastically clever way of name-calling through scripture, which I've seen more times than I can count with this particular verse. Pious Christians always pull it out of their hat when they want to, in my opinion, chase someone away from Jesus. The attitude you're displaying is the type of attitude that kept me and has kept several people I care about away from Christ for a long, long time. Every time they come around, they run into someone like you. Where they should see compassion, love, tolerance, and respectful discussion, as I believe Jesus would show, they get verses pulled from the Bible that condemn and belittle (almost always completely out of context), are called names, and see self righteousness.
Also, here's the definition of "blaspheme"
1. To speak of (God) in an irreverent, impious manner.
2. To assail with abusive language
Can you show me where I've done this anywhere in my posts? Have I been disrespectful or abusive? The last time I checked, the only place I've seen abusive language and name calling is in what you've posted to me.
I listen to counsel on a daily basis, and that's when I pray to Jesus Christ. I believe that true foolishness is driving people away from Christ with bad attitudes. And there is nothing anyone but God can do to change that...
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Feb/28/2008, 10:32 am
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jcapoet
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Re: The Bible. Infallible?
I just read everything posted and agree with certain areas on each person's side... like a sin is a sin is a sin. Homosexuality shouldn't be shunned. But I also believe it isn't a Godly act. Nobody should be name calling; not when discussing with brothers and sisters in Christ and especially not when giving counsel or talking to unbelievers. If the person you're witnessing to only hears how bad they are, they're not going to want to join up with a whole religion that thinks they're no good! And, yes, many church leaders are wrong in how they handle things, but it's not an excuse to deny the gathering of believers (which I've heard from some of my family's close friends). You have to find the best place possible that falls in line with what you believe and still lets you grow positively in all facets of your Godly walk.
I guess what I'm trying to say is... no person's got all the answers, so don't expect them to do so. I would love to hear more of your reasoning for why the Bible isn't infallible because I believe, in its first draft, it was and, with God's guidance while reading, all the same infallible instruction is there (despite translational differences and such).
God bless.
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Feb/28/2008, 7:30 pm
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jakD
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Re: The Bible. Infallible?
Thanks for your thoughtful and respectful response.
I guess I have what's considered a "neo-orthodox" view, in that I believe the word of God is contained in the Bible, that it IS inspired, but not perfectly translated exactly as God wanted it to be, as if written by Him word for word.
I'm tired of seeing scripture taken out of context and abused. What shihan7 posted is a perfect example of this and I see it constantly: using Proverbs 12:15 for the purpose of belittling and being mean-spirited. This goes on all the time, and the example of Leviticus being taken completely out of context as a case against tattoos has come up here extensively. It is almost always overlooked that the law was pretty specific about the type of tattooing or marking, and that people of Israel were also commanded not to eat bloody meat, mix linens, etc. People pick and choose and use scripture completely out of context to condemn, support their own agendas, etc. They scoff at me and my "neo-orthodox" view of the Bible. But I look at their misuse and abuse of the Bible to serve their own agendas, etc. with equal disdain. I also find the idea that the Bible is God's word...word for word...equally as dangerous as the so-called "slippery slope" of viewing the Bible the way I do. This gives free reign for abuse, gay-bashing, divisiveness, hatred, male domination, etc. Scripture has been twisted to exclude women and homosexuals from churches, support slavery, bash tattooing as sinful, etc. etc. because "God says so...right here!" I received a message recently in a somewhat nasty tone that said something along the lines of "for someone who doesn't believe in the Bible, you sure quote it all the time". Once again, putting words in my mouth, and once again, displaying the sort of intolerance and maliciousness that I've come to expect.
So call it blasphemy if you want. I think that the twisting and abuse of scripture is equally as blasphemous.
And please, I don't need to just pray for some more answers (until I get YOUR answer), or read more of the Bible, or ask God to keep revealing more to me until I believe the way YOU believe. I have prayed long and hard on this issue, and I believe that this is what God HAS revealed to me.
Now I can go post a topic about how much I think God blesses same-sex relationships. That should be a good one. And not because I'm a "troll" who's here to "stir up strife" to use shihan7's kind and tolerant words; but rather, because I like the hard topics that I most would like to hear opinions about.
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Feb/28/2008, 10:42 pm
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earringfella
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Re: The Bible. Infallible?
If, then, as you say, you don't believe after all that God has lied to you or misled you in the Bible, yet you don't believe that the Bible, as God's Word is infallible, then where in the Bible has God failed to express what He meant?
I agree that faith has its logic, and unbelief has its logic (of a diffeent sort) as well.
"He that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is the rewarder of them that diligently seek him." (Hebrews 11)
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Trust the Bible.
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Mar/11/2008, 12:15 am
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jakD
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Re: The Bible. Infallible?
Look, and I don't mean this in a patronizing or negative way. But there is no way I could explain myself any better than I have on this topic. Read through the post. Read the last thing I posted before your question.
...but, to answer what I think you're asking. There is no place in the Bible, specifically, that has given me this view. God hasn't "failed to express" anything within scripture to give me this view. I believe that the Bible contains the word of God...in other words, is inspired by God. I believe God's spirit was dwelling within the authors of the Bible. But it isn't as if God wrote a book, word for word, through men. I don't identify scripture as the word of God...I identify Jesus Christ as the word of God. to quote from neverthirsty.org:
"This view of inspiration says the Bible is a human book and contains historical and scientific errors. They do not believe the Bible is accurate word for word. Those who hold to this view believe the Bible contains the Word of God as opposed to being the Word of God. They believe Jesus Christ is the proper object of worship, and they criticize the conservative view of inspiration as "worshiping the Bible." For them, the Bible is inspired when it exalts one's own view of Jesus. In short, scripture is inspired when it provides a personal encounter with Jesus. Consequently, they would say the Bible becomes the Word of God as you read it and as it has meaning to the reader."
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Mar/11/2008, 11:52 pm
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earringfella
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Re: The Bible. Infallible?
quote:
jakD wrote:
Look, and I don't mean this in a patronizing or negative way. But there is no way I could explain myself any better than I have on this topic. Read through the post. Read the last thing I posted before your question.
...but, to answer what I think you're asking. There is no place in the Bible, specifically, that has given me this view. God hasn't "failed to express" anything within scripture to give me this view. I believe that the Bible contains the word of God...in other words, is inspired by God. I believe God's spirit was dwelling within the authors of the Bible. But it isn't as if God wrote a book, word for word, through men. I don't identify scripture as the word of God...I identify Jesus Christ as the word of God. to quote from neverthirsty.org:
"This view of inspiration says the Bible is a human book and contains historical and scientific errors. They do not believe the Bible is accurate word for word. Those who hold to this view believe the Bible contains the Word of God as opposed to being the Word of God. They believe Jesus Christ is the proper object of worship, and they criticize the conservative view of inspiration as "worshiping the Bible." For them, the Bible is inspired when it exalts one's own view of Jesus. In short, scripture is inspired when it provides a personal encounter with Jesus. Consequently, they would say the Bible becomes the Word of God as you read it and as it has meaning to the reader."
But where the quote says this:
"scripture is inspired when it provides a personal encounter with Jesus. Consequently, they would say the Bible becomes the Word of God as you read it and as it has meaning to the reader",
then, put another way, I could say, "If the Bible some place feels right for me, then it's inspired. If it feels true to me, then it become true. If I feel God is speaking, then He is."
I'm sorry, but where is the authority of Scripture there? It's as if God hasn't necessarily spoken.
The Lord Jesus Christ is indeed the living and eternal Word (John 1.14).
But I don't recognize what I receive as the written Word of God in the quote you've given.
I'm not trying to be hostile to you personally.
'Thy Word is truth'. (John 17.17)
'All Scripture is given by inspiration of God' (2 Timothy 3.16)
'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven' (Psalm 119.89)
I am just trying to see what Scripture itself says about itself, and follow it, and by God's grace obey it, and not infuse my meaning into it. By God's grace, we need exegesis, getting what the text means, not eisegesis, putting meaning into it.
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Trust the Bible.
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Mar/14/2008, 8:20 am
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jakD
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Re: The Bible. Infallible?
I appreciate your response.
But I guess it depends on how you define "God has spoken." Like I said, I don't believe it's as if God has written a book. I think the Bible DOES need interpretation. Like I've said, could I take scripture from Deuteronomy literally, and be within my rights to stone my wife to death? Can I marry my daughter off when she's 14 years old? And people say, "Oh, well THOSE things don't apply today..." Well, why not? And who says? The Bible says to obey the laws of the land, so what does this say of slavery? Do you read Revelations literally? Scripture isn't black and white in my opinion, and when it's viewed that way, I believe it's dangerous. I think we have to be prayerful and mindful, and ultimately look to Jesus for the answers.
I understand the scripture you've cited. But it changes nothing in my view. The word IS truth...and given by inspiration. I don't argue these points. But as I've said, we need to be able to interpret the Bible in its context. Like with Leviticus, which is constantly being thrown around. Do you feel you can take the parts of Leviticus that speak to tattooing or homosexuality, without using it in its context, as rules that were to specifically separate the people of Israel? Do you think that the definition of "tattooing or marking" that it speaks of there can be applied to tattooing today, or a case against it as sinful? This is just one example. People like to use scripture like a buffet table, without using it in its proper context.
But anyway, again, I think God HAS spoken, just not directly. I feel the Bible is inspired...not written by God...it's more general, I suppose. We are not perfect, and I don't think that we wrote a perfect book. It's not an "all or none" issue with me. Look, I KNOW how unpopular this view is here. But it's what I've come to after a whoooole lot of prayerful consideration.
Anyway...He'll make it clear to all of us one day. Did I repeat myself there like three times? Probably....I've had a lot of coffee....shoot, I need to get to work!
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Mar/14/2008, 10:19 am
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Roscoe235
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Re: The Bible. Infallible?
quote:
jakD wrote:
I KNOW how unpopular this view is here. But it's what I've come to after a whoooole lot of prayerful consideration.
Ha! Your view is not just unpopular HERE, you're pretty much taking on a brick wall reinforced by hundreds of years of tradition. I've had no luck whatsoever with your line of reasoning - I think it's easier to argue with atheists. It always boils down to the accusation that if you don't take the scriptures literally, then you don't take them seriously, and you're some kind of pseudo-Christian at best. Good Luck!
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Mar/15/2008, 7:14 pm
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