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algy
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Re: Final Major Project
I wasn't using 'viable commercial product' as a generic catch-all label. Edge had stated that he was confident that his peice would have a 'better than average chance of marketability', and so my statement was tailored to his. Therefore it isn't a 'misnomer'.
And I'm also not assuming that a Masters is easy. Again my comments were pertinent to Edge. He said that his tutors valued his work, recognising intelligence within it, and that the inclusion/insistence of a genre would lower his mark, not fail the course.
All I'm trying to suggest is that Edge might have a choice to make - and that that choice is an enviable one for those not in his position.
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5/5/2008, 11:25 am
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Fitzgerald Fortune
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Re: Final Major Project
quote: algy wrote:
I wasn't using 'viable commercial product' as a generic catch-all label. Edge had stated that he was confident that his peice would have a 'better than average chance of marketability', and so my statement was tailored to his. Therefore it isn't a 'misnomer'.
I was referring specifically to this line: 'If you're confident that your book would be a viable commercial product (now there's a term to shatter illusions) wouldn't your own creativity be a more sound investment in the long run', which suggests a choice between a 'commercial product' and an unnamed option (which to Mark would be success at his MA level studies). It's a false dualism: it's not a choice between 'pride' and 'paying the mortgage' at all.
The sentence also aligned the phrase 'viable commercial product' with the notion of 'creativity', which is problematic. My point is that the production of a 'commercial product' would require Mark to jump through as many hoops as his MA studies are requiring him to do, but at this point without the 'inside' contacts the goalposts for that achievement are an unknown quantity. On the other hand, the goalpoasts for his MA studies are known to him. My advice would always be to work with what you know, rather than aim for something that you can't possibly measure at this point in time (i.e. what you specifically have to do to please Publisher A or Editor C).
In sum, Mark's choice isn't between getting a good mark at his MA and producing something that *may* be considered for publication. Mark can
(a) produce something that he enjoys writing, which may or may not get a good mark or which may or may not be considered for publication;
(b) he can aim for a good mark in his MA, which may make him equally happy, but which may involve making some compromises within a framework that he already understands; or
(c) he can aim for producing work for commercial publication, which would involve at least an equal amount of compromise but which could have a negative impact on his mark for his MA and which would involve working within an unknown and unfamiliar framework, towards an unknown and immeasurable goal.
My advice would be to do what makes him happy or work within the confines of a framework that he understands, so I would recommend choosing either option (a) or option (b).
There's a great myth of the 'pure' work of art, and this holds many people back in all of their endeavours. Peace of mind is the name of the game, and compromise is one of its pivotal rules; we can pick the game, but we can't change the rules. There are very few cut-and-dried either/or choices in life. I would recommend that Mark does whatever he feels he needs to do for his MA studies, and worry about anything else later on: if you keep your eyes on the horizon, sometimes you end up tripping over your own feet.
quote: And I'm also not assuming that a Masters is easy.
Well, that remains to be seen, judging by some of the comments that have been made by internal bureaucrats regarding the postgraduate degrees that are being offered at our place over the next couple of years.
Don't forget that there's also the issue of copyright. I'm not sure what Sheffield Hallam's perspective on this issue is: if Mark's work is going to be stored in their library, Sheffield Hallam may count that as their publication, and therefore Mark may not be able to do anything with the text once it's been submitted. Different universities have different ideas about this issue.
Last edited by Fitzgerald Fortune, 5/5/2008, 1:08 pm
--- 'Don't let the sound of your own wheels drive you crazy'.

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5/5/2008, 12:49 pm
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algy
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Re: Final Major Project
Well, I'm dropping out of the Masters running for September. So you can sort out any problems or issues by the time I'm in a position to do it
And I'm still not saying that *I* assume that it's easy to pass.
--- This is why we come
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5/5/2008, 1:07 pm
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Fitzgerald Fortune
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Re: Final Major Project
quote: algy wrote:
Well, I'm dropping out of the Masters running for September. So you can sort out any problems or issues by the time I'm in a position to do it
And I'm still not saying that *I* assume that it's easy to pass.
Well, it shouldn't be, but there's pressure to 'dumb it down' to make the courses more easy to market, essentially. (There's been similar pressure on the undergraduate degrees over the last seven years or so too.) Marketing people without an understanding of the disciplines have been trying to rewrite the content of the courses. However, we're fighting it tooth and nail, so hopefully the integrity of the courses will remain by the time they are put into operation. If not, they're going to face mass walkouts or blockages in the development of the courses.
But that's just yet another example of the forced compromises that are demanded by the wheels of finance. Those types of compromise are the most soul-destroying, I feel.
Last edited by Fitzgerald Fortune, 5/5/2008, 1:14 pm
--- 'Don't let the sound of your own wheels drive you crazy'.

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5/5/2008, 1:12 pm
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Edge44
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Re: Final Major Project
Sorry I haven't replied to what's gone on here; I've been a very busy chap just lately.
I'm dismayed to see that there's been some 'unrest' arising from my posts, and yet I'm also thankful that it's happened because it's helped peel the blinkers from my eyes. I'll try to address what's been said.
quote: Algy wrote:
...Edge might have a choice to make - and that that choice is an enviable one for those not in his position.
Thanks first to you, Algy, as I had never before your comment seen myself in an enviable position. I've spent a large amount of time struggling with my decisions that all I could see was the negatives of my situation. Your comment was the kick I needed to begin looking at my position from a different perspective
quote: Fitzgerald Fortune wrote:
The sentence also aligned the phrase 'viable commercial product' with the notion of 'creativity', which is problematic. My point is that the production of a 'commercial product' would require Mark to jump through as many hoops as his MA studies are requiring him to do, but at this point without the 'inside' contacts the goalposts for that achievement are an unknown quantity. On the other hand, the goalpoasts for his MA studies are known to him. My advice would always be to work with what you know, rather than aim for something that you can't possibly measure at this point in time (i.e. what you specifically have to do to please Publisher A or Editor C).
In sum, Mark's choice isn't between getting a good mark at his MA and producing something that *may* be considered for publication. Mark can
(a) produce something that he enjoys writing, which may or may not get a good mark or which may or may not be considered for publication;
(b) he can aim for a good mark in his MA, which may make him equally happy, but which may involve making some compromises within a framework that he already understands; or
(c) he can aim for producing work for commercial publication, which would involve at least an equal amount of compromise but which could have a negative impact on his mark for his MA and which would involve working within an unknown and unfamiliar framework, towards an unknown and immeasurable goal.
My advice would be to do what makes him happy or work within the confines of a framework that he understands, so I would recommend choosing either option (a) or option (b).
Thanks in equal measure to you, Paul, for approaching my issue with the above logical breakdown. From what you have written here the answer is so simple that it's like taking an uppercut from Mike Tyson.
It seems logical for me to concentrate on achieving my present goal, which is to pass my MA. To this end, b is the choice for me.
As you pointed out in previous posts, I'm going to have to deal with the same number of compromises no matter which route I take. I need to focus on the positive aspect that I will have a completed first-draft novel when I finish my MA, and that in itself is a great springboard towards my goal of publication.
Thanks again
--- "Everything's relative..."
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5/21/2008, 1:20 pm
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Fitzgerald Fortune
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Re: Final Major Project
quote: Edge44 wrote:
I'm dismayed to see that there's been some 'unrest' arising from my posts, and yet I'm also thankful that it's happened because it's helped peel the blinkers from my eyes. I'll try to address what's been said.
Ach, that's not unrest: it's friendly banter
But anyway, we're here to help, Mark
Compromise is frustrating but it's a necessary part of any job: you're either (directly or obliquely) being asked to 'dumb it down' or to pick up the pace. In my experience, that applies to teaching as much as it applies to critical writing or, from the very limited experience I've had of the field, writing fiction for publication or for competitions. It's always nice to think that your work is your own, but to a significant extent the outcome of your work is also always a product of the ideological structures of the institutions or organisations within which you must work in order for it to be disseminated.
Last edited by Fitzgerald Fortune, 5/21/2008, 6:27 pm
--- 'Don't let the sound of your own wheels drive you crazy'.

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5/21/2008, 6:16 pm
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algy
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Re: Final Major Project
I have a completed draft and it doesn't feel like much of a springboard at the moment. I'm feeling pretty negative about it for now; shouldn't've got excited and sent it off to all those agents because it's just not ready. Still, that's the lesson in novel writing: patience.
I want to leave it for a good few months and work on another project to give myself some space from it, but I also want to try and get it ready for a competition that closes soon. So I'm banging my head against the wall with the ducking thing. Ah well, such is the scribbling life.
http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/articles/books/getinvolved.html?in_article_id=443521&in_page_id=1827
That's a link to the competition if anyone's interested.
--- This is why we come
So we know their names
When those Spurs are done
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5/24/2008, 7:19 pm
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