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conzthegreat
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Re: 1st Edition Feel
the first edition feel isnt so much, in my opinion, the rules and how players were playing, but the point in your life that you played it. things were different then. i'm not sure the "1st edition feel" can ever be captured as it should be.
Conz
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2/28/2005, 12:13 am
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Wolf70
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Re: 1st Edition Feel
While I agree to some extent, I do believe it was somewhat how people were playing and to a large extent how things were written. There was also a slightly different social contract between players and DM's IMO than is common now.
DM
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"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
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2/28/2005, 7:35 am
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CSW
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Re: 1st Edition Feel
Woah, dude. Profound insight. As Darren says, not 100% accurate, but there is definitely more than a little truth in that assessment.
"Eh? You young whippersnappers don't know what RPG's are all about! Back in my day...ah!...they wrote a module then! The rules were simpler, for a simpler time. The players were better...more honest, more heroic. none of that sissy commie angst stuff. We used to have to walk 4 miles uphill in the freezing rain which followed the blizzard after the meteor strike just to game. I tell ya....kids these days just don't appreciate Gaming."
Seriously, trying to recapture our glory days beats hitting on the cheerleaders, wearing leisure suits, and driving convertibles, doesn't it? (Although I would love a convertible.) It is an innocent and honest look back at a fine time in our lives.
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2/28/2005, 9:39 am
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conzthegreat
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Re: 1st Edition Feel
i suppose i worded my post somewhat incorrectly. the first edition feel is definitely about the rules and how the players were playing, but those were so heavily impacted by the time in which you played. if you hadnt ever played D&D before, and there was no 3rd or 3.5, or even 2nd, i'd be willing to bet that if you picked up a 1e PHB and DMG, that you would not play the same way as you did when you first tried.
as for the social contract, its sort of what has just become of gaming because of editions and just general social norms. people have become less complacent and more ass-holish. there are a lot of new players out there that dont know anything about old editions or how things used to be. if they read the PHB and then question a ruling when the DM contradicts something, is it utterly wrong or distateful to question it or point it out?
and yes, trying to recapture our glory days of D&D is a great thing to try to do, but we have to wonder if we ever will be able to and be satisfied with what we've done. consider this, if DaVinci painted a second Mona Lisa now, would it ever be as good or satisfying as the first?
this is fun
Conz
the whole principle of "what the DM says goes" is a nice concept, but we all have to admit that not every decision made by a DM was enjoyable. it may have suited him at the time, but how much fun did everyone else have?
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2/28/2005, 10:12 am
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Wolf70
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Re: 1st Edition Feel
quote:
conzthegreat wrote:
i suppose i worded my post somewhat incorrectly. the first edition feel is definitely about the rules and how the players were playing, but those were so heavily impacted by the time in which you played. if you hadnt ever played D&D before, and there was no 3rd or 3.5, or even 2nd, i'd be willing to bet that if you picked up a 1e PHB and DMG, that you would not play the same way as you did when you first tried.
as for the social contract, its sort of what has just become of gaming because of editions and just general social norms. people have become less complacent and more ass-holish. there are a lot of new players out there that dont know anything about old editions or how things used to be. if they read the PHB and then question a ruling when the DM contradicts something, is it utterly wrong or distateful to question it or point it out?
I don't think it is a matter of complacency or not questioning a DM's ruling. I think it is about the way in which people go about it. I also think that it could be because when we were younger, we would game with a group of already established friends who were at the same point in their gaming experience that we were. However, we would also NOT game with them. We would go to the pool or the arcade or out in the woods, or play something else. There wasn't as much social pressure on the gaming because if we didn't game, we would be with the same people doing something else fun. When all you do as a group is game together, it puts a lot of social pressure on the gaming to be the sole social outlet for the group.
quote:
and yes, trying to recapture our glory days of D&D is a great thing to try to do, but we have to wonder if we ever will be able to and be satisfied with what we've done. consider this, if DaVinci painted a second Mona Lisa now, would it ever be as good or satisfying as the first?
Maybe if he tried a second one and applied wisdom gained through the creation of the first one and other works, we would not even know the first one existed. How do we know this isn't the second one?
quote:
this is fun
Actually, it is very fun. This is kind of what I was hoping to generate.
quote:
the whole principle of "what the DM says goes" is a nice concept, but we all have to admit that not every decision made by a DM was enjoyable. it may have suited him at the time, but how much fun did everyone else have?
But does it have to be either "be an asshole" or "keep my mouth shut"? How about the alternative? With a high level of trust, you can honestly and openly discuss stuff that happened at the gaming table. If we are not all being honest with each other and we all know or suspect that, then it blows that out of the water and the sniping starts. This is, I think, easiest with people with whom you spend a great deal of time and do things other than gaming. When gaming is your only outlet, it is hard to establish that trust that keeps the communication flowing between everyone at the table.
Like it or not, sometimes DM's have to make decisions that people at the table are not going to like. Sometimes players are going to make decisions that the DM isn't going to like. Everyone has to realize that just because you don't like it, it may be the best that could be done at that point and that the DM will probably realize how you feel because he has felt that way before because of something you or another player did. Things will come full circle.
I also think this is a problem that is more common with a "rules heavy" system such as 3.x where there are so many rules to govern almost every circumstance that if the DM forgets or can't find one, it can either be bog the game down for 10 minutes searching or make a snap decisions. There are just more ways for rulings to be criticized because the rules could be interpreted to cover almost everything that could arise at the table (which is what they are meant to do and have succeeded well). Whereas, in 1E, there were often no rules for something, so the DM applied a similar rule and it usually worked.
I still think it is not just a "GLORY DAYS" approach that is only available to us old farts. I think it is a way of playing the game that can be acheived with the current ruleset even if it is a little more difficult. I will end with a quote from the same conversation I got most of the rest of these from:
quote:
I still believe that one of the legacies of 1e gaming is the ability to GM on the fly with comfort and confidence. Regardless of version, there is an element of trust that must exist between gamers in order for the game to work. If your GM or players aren't trustworthy, then what are you doing spending your precious leisure time with them? Life's too short for that nonsense.
DM
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"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
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2/28/2005, 10:20 pm
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conzthegreat
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Re: 1st Edition Feel
quote:
Wolf70 wrote:
quote:
and yes, trying to recapture our glory days of D&D is a great thing to try to do, but we have to wonder if we ever will be able to and be satisfied with what we've done. consider this, if DaVinci painted a second Mona Lisa now, would it ever be as good or satisfying as the first?
Maybe if he tried a second one and applied wisdom gained through the creation of the first one and other works, we would not even know the first one existed. How do we know this isn't the second one?
does this then not apply to 2e and 3e, and furthermore 3.5?
Conz
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2/28/2005, 11:08 pm
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Wolf70
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Re: 1st Edition Feel
Obviously not, since so many people remember the previous editions so fondly. There are MANY campaigns out there that use OD&D (white or brown box) rules, D&D (known-world, Mystara, basic, expert, etc.), or 1E or 2E rules. I think since in this area, most of us game in relative isolation that we think everyone else just does what we do.
DM
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"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
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3/1/2005, 7:31 am
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