Done It Wrong, Going To Do It Right... ~ at Runboard.com
Strand RPG
 Rules
  Done It Wrong, Going To Do It Right...
Support
Search

runboard.com       Sign up (learn about it) | Sign in (lost password?)

 
Wolf70
Head Administrator
Global user

Registered: 02-2005
Posts: 72
Karma: 1 (+1/-0)
Reply | Quote
Done It Wrong, Going To Do It Right...


Wow, have we screwed up AoO's... so badly that it was damaging to game balance. There are several rules that I have re-read (some 4-5 times now)... actually, I have re-read both DMG and PHB and have found some things that are really easy to do incorrectly and that we have been doing incorrectly... now to put fixes into place for when I start gaming again.

DM


---
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

- Friedrich Nietzsche
3/21/2005, 5:33 pm Send Email to Wolf70   Send PM to Wolf70
 
BossDaus
Registered user
Global user

Registered: 03-2005
Posts: 4
Karma: 0 (+0/-0)
Reply | Quote
Re: Done It Wrong, Going To Do It Right...


Just wondering...how where they being used incorrectly?
3/21/2005, 7:06 pm Send Email to BossDaus   Send PM to BossDaus
 
Wolf70
Head Administrator
Global user

Registered: 02-2005
Posts: 72
Karma: 1 (+1/-0)
Reply | Quote
Re: Done It Wrong, Going To Do It Right...


Completely.

Ignore the charts that show what action provokes an AoO, because that is what screwed me up (also falling back on 3.0). If done correctly, AoO's should almost NEVER be used. In straight combat, not using fancy tactics or spells, only moving OUT of a threatened square provokes one... not moving in or through... charges don't even provoke one unless you charge through a threatened square. You really have to work to provoke one.

Cameron posted a hint to that effect at some point, I think, but I didn't realize how badly we were screwing the pooch on that one until I read it about 4 times today.

DM


DM


---
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

- Friedrich Nietzsche
3/21/2005, 9:57 pm Send Email to Wolf70   Send PM to Wolf70
 
CSW
Registered user
Global user

Registered: 02-2005
Posts: 18
Karma: 0 (+0/-0)
Reply | Quote
Re: Done It Wrong, Going To Do It Right...


Aye...was mighty sad, it was.

I thought moving through did still provoke one (assuming greater than a 5-ft. step)? May have misread that one myself, since I was focussing on reach attacks for creatuures of large size and AoO's just on entering threat ranges.

They can definitely have an impact on things, but should not absolutely dominate the game now, they way they were. Combat Reflexes, for example, will go back to being useful at times, rather than essential for survival.

I think Casters now get screwed though, as casting does still provoke an AoO (when a regular attack by non-Casters does not). So, they need to cast defensively (how fair is that? Roll to see if you can even make your "attack"?). Then, if you failed your roll, you can get attacked by every mob nearby, when you likely have the lowest HP in the party!

DEFINITELY unfair to casters, moreso the more of a caster you are (ie. Paladains not screwed much, bards somewhat, clerics screwed, Mages FUBARed).

One thing is certain...the old school approach of "Protect the Casters!" just got current again. [Wait a minute...that begins to sound like something approaching strategy...for our group?!? The mind boggles.]
3/22/2005, 8:13 am Send Email to CSW   Send PM to CSW
 
Wolf70
Head Administrator
Global user

Registered: 02-2005
Posts: 72
Karma: 1 (+1/-0)
Reply | Quote
Re: Done It Wrong, Going To Do It Right...


It is redundant to say that "moving through" provokes one... it is the "moving out" of the square that is implied by moving through that does the actual provoking.

As for casters... keep them in the back and they should be fine... 15-20' away from the creatures and the front line fighter(s) make sure that if anything does attack the casters then it has to leave a square threatened by them.

DM


---
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

- Friedrich Nietzsche
3/22/2005, 9:13 am Send Email to Wolf70   Send PM to Wolf70
 
CSW
Registered user
Global user

Registered: 02-2005
Posts: 18
Karma: 0 (+0/-0)
Reply | Quote
Re: Done It Wrong, Going To Do It Right...


Good point, Wolf.

If moving through, and travelling greater than 5 feet, moving out is kind of implied there then, isn't it?

But what about truly ginormous critters? Like a dragon? One could move through the many threatened squares, without actually leaving the threat range. Would this be considered leaving the 1 threatened square when entering another (again, if moving more than 5ft)?

3/22/2005, 9:23 am Send Email to CSW   Send PM to CSW
 
Wolf70
Head Administrator
Global user

Registered: 02-2005
Posts: 72
Karma: 1 (+1/-0)
Reply | Quote
Re: Done It Wrong, Going To Do It Right...


quote:

CSW wrote:

Good point, Wolf.

If moving through, and travelling greater than 5 feet, moving out is kind of implied there then, isn't it?

But what about truly ginormous critters? Like a dragon? One could move through the many threatened squares, without actually leaving the threat range. Would this be considered leaving the 1 threatened square when entering another (again, if moving more than 5ft)?



It is leaving ANY threatened square that provokes. Thus, if facing a gargantuan creature, just moving in to engage it in melee combat would cause you to enter and then leave several threatened squares, which would subject you to an AoO whenever you left one of those threatened squares to enter a new one... so, if it was a Storm Giant with multiple AoO's, you are SOL!

The benefit though is that in normal combat, you rarely have to worry about AoO's. Even to retreat, you can just use Withdraw, which doesn't have to be in a straight line (though a charge does).

Some things which we have taken for granted that actually are useful when AoO's are done correctly are sunder, disarm, trip, bull rush and overrun. They seemed to suck the way we were running combat, but are actually pretty useful.

Sorry to goof up those rules. I will probably RTFM's again before Monday.

BTW, my C&C PHB came in while I was gone. It is an interesting take on the rules, but I am not going to pass judgement until I see what they do with it in the other two core books when they come out.

I actually think I like the 3.5 system even more now that I learned that a lot of what was unbalancing the game was being done wrong.

DM


DM



---
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

- Friedrich Nietzsche
3/22/2005, 12:05 pm Send Email to Wolf70   Send PM to Wolf70
 
conzthegreat
Registered user
Global user

Registered: 02-2005
Posts: 8
Karma: 0 (+0/-0)
Avatar
Reply | Quote
Re: Done It Wrong, Going To Do It Right...


quote:

Wolf70 wrote:

It is leaving ANY threatened square that provokes. Thus, if facing a gargantuan creature, just moving in to engage it in melee combat would cause you to enter and then leave several threatened squares, which would subject you to an AoO whenever you left one of those threatened squares to enter a new one... so, if it was a Storm Giant with multiple AoO's, you are SOL!




actually, you can only make on attack of opportunity against the same target once in a round. so though he might be moving through 3 or 4 threatened squares, he isnt going to get bashed to pieces if the giant had Combat Reflexes, he'll take a good smack coming in, but only one.

Conz

3/24/2005, 12:31 am Send Email to conzthegreat   Send PM to conzthegreat
 
CSW
Registered user
Global user

Registered: 02-2005
Posts: 18
Karma: 0 (+0/-0)
Reply | Quote
Re: Done It Wrong, Going To Do It Right...


We'd have to check this, as I may be wrong, but I believe that what you are referring to is that a specific action can only provoke a single AoO. Therefore, leaving square001 can only provoke one. In cases where the large creature has the greater threat area, however, leaving square002 might also provoke one then.

Make sense? I'll need to recheck the books to be sure though.
3/24/2005, 7:48 am Send Email to CSW   Send PM to CSW
 
Wolf70
Head Administrator
Global user

Registered: 02-2005
Posts: 72
Karma: 1 (+1/-0)
Reply | Quote
Re: Done It Wrong, Going To Do It Right...


quote:

conzthegreat wrote:

actually, you can only make on attack of opportunity against the same target once in a round. so though he might be moving through 3 or 4 threatened squares, he isnt going to get bashed to pieces if the giant had Combat Reflexes, he'll take a good smack coming in, but only one.

Conz




You are right and wrong.

Allow me to quote the PHB:

quote:

PHB, pp. 137-138

...if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you - such as by moving out of a threatened square and then casting a spell in a threatened square - you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.



So, while it is possible to take more than AoO against the same opponent in a round, you cannot do it for moving out of multiple threatened squares. So, I retract my earlier statement... and add more giants.

DM


---
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

- Friedrich Nietzsche
3/24/2005, 8:23 am Send Email to Wolf70   Send PM to Wolf70
 


Add a reply






Powered by AkBBS 0.9.5b  -  Link to us   -  Blogs   -  Hall of Honour   -  Chat
Click here to get your own free message board
You are not logged in (login)      Board's time is: 10/7/2008, 6:20 am