Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Boomer Tiro
Imperial Tourist
Global user
Registered: 10-2005
Posts: 203
|
|
Reply | Quote
|
|
 Periodic Table
There is a large mis-understanding about the periodic table. So I am going to post here what just about every high-school text-book has had to say since 1920... yet most sci-fi authors ignore it anyway.
The periodic table of the chemical elements is a tabular method of displaying the chemical elements, first devised in 1869 by the Russian chemist Dmitri Mendeleev. Mendeleev intended the table to illustrate recurring ("periodic") trends in the properties of the elements.
Various different layouts are possible, to emphasize different aspects of behavior; the most common forms, however, are still quite similar to Mendeleev's original. The periodic table is now ubiquitous within the academic discipline of chemistry, providing an extremely useful framework to classify, systematize and compare all the many different forms of chemical behavior. The table has also found wide application in physics, biology, engineering, and industry.
Earlier attempts to list the elements had usually simply put them in order of atomic mass. Mendeleev's key insight in devising the periodic table was to lay out the elements to illustrate recurring ("periodic") chemical properties (even if this meant some of them were not in mass order), and to leave gaps for "missing" elements. Mendeleev used his table to predict the properties of these "missing elements", and many of them were indeed discovered and fitted the predictions well.
With the development of theories of atomic structure (for instance by Henry Moseley) it became apparent that Mendeleev had listed the elements in order of increasing atomic number (i.e. the number of protons in the atomic nucleus).
In order to illustrate recurring properties, Mendeleev began new rows in his table so that elements with similar properties fell into the same vertical columns ("groups").
Mendeleev predicted 94 elements. Later the table was expanded to include 104 stable elements.
There have been attempts to produce and add new artificial elements. However the validity of these elements is disputed as they last a number of nanoseconds in many cases.
In summary, making up a brand new element with a magical property is against the very well established, proven, and well used Periodic Table of Chemical Elements. It is not defined as "The List of Discovered Chemical Elements" as some treat it, but a calculated structure that at one time was showing us how elements we havn't even discovered would work. We now have filled in the entire table.
This table is used by many industries to creat brand new chemical compounds and materials, such as the Dupont company's creation of Kevlar.
This is what works. It is real. It is this way. To present it as any other is counter to reality.
Duranium. A "natural" element in the Star Trek galaxy... utter bupkus.
Dilithium. Despite recent attempts to reconcile dilithium as an ionic compund of lithium, which would be keeping in line with real physics, originally dilithium was a naturally occuring element. Dilithiums initial concept was wrong and had several episodes devoted to it, involving dilithium mines and explanation of it's "natural" formation. The recent change of dilithium to a lithium based ionic compound is much better.
And I am sure we all know of other famous sci-fi elements that do not fit anywhere on the periodic table.
|
|
5/19/2006, 5:00 pm
|
|
psCargile
Banned user
Global user
Registered: 09-2005
Posts: 1268
|
|
Reply | Quote
|
|
Re: Periodic Table
retracts the applause, you cut and paster. Should have caught on that you don't speak that way. shame shame shame.
Last edited by Lucas P, 9/17/2006, 3:38 pm
|
|
5/20/2006, 2:57 am
|
|
The VOID
Emperor's Hand
Global user
Registered: 03-2006
Location: European Union
Posts: 2372
|
|
Reply | Quote
|
|
Re: Periodic Table
How does Hypermatter fit into the periodic table?
--- "The sand people are easily startled, but they will soon be back, and in greater numbers." — Obi-Wan Kenobi
 |
|
5/20/2006, 4:48 am
|
|
OilcanBoyd
Imperial Tourist
Global user
Registered: 05-2006
Location: London, England
Posts: 31
|
|
Reply | Quote
|
|
Re: Periodic Table
Elements can be created, but they also have to follow the rules of the periodic table. One of the best known "created" elements in our own universe is plutonium. A by-product of uranium reactors. Others have been made using atombashers. Because these elements are created who ever get's there first gets to name it. As a result of this you have elements with very strange names, which are often temporary, for example; Ununnilium for element 110 (literally element one-one-nil-ium). These elements have pretty much no practical use (lasting on the order of nanoseconds).
What they are, however, is a stepping stone to potentially more interesting elements, assuming they actually exist! Once you get passed Polonium at atomic number 84 everything is radioactive. With the rule of thumb being that the greater an elements atomic number the faster it decays (shorter the half life). However, it is possible that this tendency does not continue indefinitely as you increase atomic number.
Empiracal models have been developed for predicting the stability of elements. They are not exact, but are accurate enough for what they are intended. Using this model certain "magic numbers" for protons and neutrons have been discovered. The atoms corresponding to these numbers are unusually stable. For protons the magic numbers are 28, 50, 82, 114 abd 164. And for Neutrons 28, 50, 82, 126, 184, 196 and 318. For example the most stable known element is lead with 82 protons and 126 neutrons.
For example element 114 (eka-lead) with 114 protons and 184 neutrons is predicted to be more stable than those around it. Using the Periodic table it's properties can even be predicted, based on it being in the 'lead' series. It would resemble lead; a metal with a melting point around 70 C and boiling point around 150 C. It would be 25% more dense than lead.
Even if this model is incorrect it does not preclude the possibility that some super-heavy stable elements may exist that conform to other "magic numbers" of protons and neutrons. However, in all these cases the properties of these elements would be predicted by the exisiting rules of the periodic table.
As far as hypermatter, I always considered this to not be a true "element" but more an exotic matter. In the same vane as dark matter, anti-matter, etc.. Alternatively it could simply refer to matter from a different dimension/universe, like "hyper"-space. In which case you could make up properties for it, as the physical rules of a different universe don't actually have to be the same as the physical rules of ours.
|
|
5/20/2006, 5:26 am
|
|
The VOID
Emperor's Hand
Global user
Registered: 03-2006
Location: European Union
Posts: 2372
|
|
Reply | Quote
|
|
Re: Periodic Table
As soon as you include elements that exist OUTSIDE the periodic system, the very use of the periodic system is not very absolute anymore. Eventually, you would have a whole set of different materials, linked in theyr own systematic pattern outside the boundaries of the known system.
Applying our laws of physics and chemistry to the Star Wars Galaxy produces a truck load of problems and discrepancies.
Many materials in Star Wars have properties, that would qualify as compound materials, but the technology to create them in mass does not reflect in other aspects of the Star Wars Universe. If production of an artificial compound material requires nano-technology far beyond what we can grasp, then it would have tremendous consequences for thousands of manufacturing processes. If you can make super materials, they will not be used exclusively for a single purpose. Then you could make body armor out of a single macromolecule, able to cope with damage far beyond what we see in the movies for a price far below than a single TIE fighter, for a whole platton set of it.
Star Wars is not science-fiction. It is often put into the science-fiction genre, because the genre name is misused. Star Wars is mostly space fantasy, to a certain degree. There is not a lot of science in it and never has been. We don't have sound in space and we don't have midichlorians either. 
--- "The sand people are easily startled, but they will soon be back, and in greater numbers." — Obi-Wan Kenobi
|
|
5/20/2006, 6:02 am
|
|
Witzig
Global user
Registered: 02-2006
Location: Germany
Posts: 694
|
|
Reply | Quote
|
|
Re: Periodic Table
Yes and in Star Wars ships begin to stop when the Engines stop providing thrust , Newton anyone ?
|
|
5/20/2006, 7:14 am
|
|
The VOID
Emperor's Hand
Global user
Registered: 03-2006
Location: European Union
Posts: 2372
|
|
Reply | Quote
|
|
Re: Periodic Table
Known physics can be used to explain some phenomena in Star Wars, but if something does NOT work in known physics, it still works in Star Wars.
Fighters don't suffer from recoil, they decelerate and stop if they stop theyr thrusters, there is sound in space, capital ships that are crippled sink, lightsabers melt armored doors, but they don't fry the user and so on and so on and so on...
--- "The sand people are easily startled, but they will soon be back, and in greater numbers." — Obi-Wan Kenobi
|
|
5/20/2006, 9:44 am
|
|
Kayle Skolaris
Banned user
Global user
Registered: 10-2005
Posts: 868
|
|
Reply | Quote
|
|
Re: Periodic Table
It should be pointed out that to my knowledge no one has ever claimed Duranium IS an element. Yes, it has 'ium' at the end, which is normally indicative of an element, but then so does 'neutronium' and no one's claiming that's an element.
Chances are it's a mineral of some sort. Or maybe it's an ancient brand name for a now-common alloy.
---
I genuinely believe Uwe Boll could've done a better job with the prequels.
|
|
5/20/2006, 9:46 am
|
|
Lucas P
Emperor
Global user
Registered: 09-2005
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 3362
|
|
Reply | Quote
|
|
Re: Periodic Table
I am surprised at this thread - well done Boomer, very well done.
--- Only 2 things are infinite; The Universe, and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former. - Albert Einstein
|
|
5/20/2006, 3:13 pm
|
|
Boomer Tiro
Imperial Tourist
Global user
Registered: 10-2005
Posts: 203
|
|
Reply | Quote
|
|
Re: Periodic Table
quote:
How does Hypermatter fit into the periodic table?
The name suggest it is multi-dimensional matter. But that will require a multi-dimensional physics thread. It does not interfere or contradict with the workings of the periodic table. It's just really just vague. That's it. The name implies it is matter that is multi-dimensional. It can't interfer with physics as we know them because it just doesn't go far enough.
quote:
As soon as you include elements that exist OUTSIDE the periodic system, the very use of the periodic system is not very absolute anymore. Eventually, you would have a whole set of different materials, linked in theyr own systematic pattern outside the boundaries of the known system.
I agree. The movies never mention the names of materials. The very rare time an EU source names a new element I simply shake my head in disdain. It was wrong of them. They didn't have to.
quote:
Applying our laws of physics and chemistry to the Star Wars Galaxy produces a truck load of problems and discrepancies.
Many materials in Star Wars have properties, that would qualify as compound materials, but the technology to create them in mass does not reflect in other aspects of the Star Wars Universe. If production of an artificial compound material requires nano-technology far beyond what we can grasp, then it would have tremendous consequences for thousands of manufacturing processes. If you can make super materials, they will not be used exclusively for a single purpose. Then you could make body armor out of a single macromolecule, able to cope with damage far beyond what we see in the movies for a price far below than a single TIE fighter, for a whole platton set of it.
Oh? All new Star Wars materials require nano-technology? You know this?
We havn't even scratched the surface of what chemistry can create with the periodic table on a macroscopic level. Micro-tech only recently has become mainstream in the past decade. Nano-tech absolutely young and opens up more possibilities but we only have theories of what can and will be done with it.
Nano-tech may also need it's own thread...
quote:
Star Wars is not science-fiction. It is often put into the science-fiction genre, because the genre name is misused. Star Wars is mostly space fantasy, to a certain degree. There is not a lot of science in it and never has been. We don't have sound in space and we don't have midichlorians either.
The term is Space Opera in america. But I find that a mis-nomer. Space Fantasy is much better. No one sings their dialogue in Star Wars anyway, all the singing is actual songs.
quote:
Fighters don't suffer from recoil, they decelerate and stop if they stop theyr thrusters, there is sound in space, capital ships that are crippled sink, lightsabers melt armored doors, but they don't fry the user and so on and so on and so on...
Need a thrust thread. Need a lightsaber thread... and so on, and so on...
But I agree Star Wars ain't following physics too strictly there.
quote:
It should be pointed out that to my knowledge no one has ever claimed Duranium IS an element. Yes, it has 'ium' at the end, which is normally indicative of an element, but then so does 'neutronium' and no one's claiming that's an element.
Chances are it's a mineral of some sort. Or maybe it's an ancient brand name for a now-common alloy.
Duranium is an element in Star Trek. Says so in many of their sources.
Neutronium is pure neutron, and by the definition of element, it is indeed elemental neutron.
quote:
I am surprised at this thread - well done Boomer, very well done.
...bout time... this is going to become VERY common from me.
|
|
5/20/2006, 11:17 pm
|
|
Add a reply
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Powered by AkBBS 0.9.5b - Link to us
- Blogs
- Hall of Honour
- Chat
Click here to get your own free message board
|
You are not logged in (login)
Board's time is: 11/23/2009, 7:14 am
|
|
|
