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psCargile
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Re: Nestt Series - Regenesis/Degenesis
Yeah, I guess if you are landing without any navigation aids or shipboard sensors of any kind, or God forbid, actually attempting an autopilot landing.
You guys forget technology far too often.
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9/1/2006, 11:00 am
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Lucas P
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Re: Nestt Series - Regenesis/Degenesis
I agree wit5h Paul. It has been established very clearly that Star Wars technology is reliable....generally they really don't need glass in the ****pit
--- Only 2 things are infinite; The Universe, and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former. - Albert Einstein
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9/1/2006, 1:53 pm
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50stone
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Re: Nestt Series - Regenesis/Degenesis
And yet clearly every freighter, fighter and capital ships have these very vulnerable windows when they could just have hull metal and sensor readouts instead.
Windows must be somewhat important, probably during close-range manoeuvering such as landing and docking operations otherwise they wouldn't be there.
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9/1/2006, 2:25 pm
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psCargile
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Re: Nestt Series - Regenesis/Degenesis
C'mon Stone, would you trust your eyes putting a multiton vehicle down onto an area not much bigger than itself?
even in outpost as remote as Tatooine, docking ports would have rather simple radio beacons which a ship's recievers would use to indicate to the pilot where the ship is in relation to the landing zone.
If I'm landing, my eyes are on the instruments, that if kept up are more reliable than guaging distances and clearances by looking out the window, where ever it is.
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9/1/2006, 3:13 pm
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Lucas P
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Re: Nestt Series - Regenesis/Degenesis
or they could be a design throwback aesthetic.
I am not entirely convinced that the ships in Star Wars really require windows...besides, they are likely not made of glass, and are likely of a substance that are resistant almost as much as the hull itself.
the current space shuttle has windows, but those windows are reinforced and are capable of withstanding the heat of reentry and micrometeric impact...just like the hull.
It's cheaper to make windows than to put cameras all over the place.
--- Only 2 things are infinite; The Universe, and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former. - Albert Einstein
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9/1/2006, 3:13 pm
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The VOID
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Re: Nestt Series - Regenesis/Degenesis
I have to disagree with Paul and Lucas on this one.
Star Wars is not reality and it is not even supposed to be realistic. Technology is used in VERY different ways.
Han didn't switch to autopilot, when they got into the asteroid field, which he would have done in that realistic wondertechnology Star Wars version. Luke, Wedge and Biggs all flew through the Death Star trench manually, instead of handing control over to their R2 units. Even the HIMS Executor is commanded from a windowed bridge, instead of a giant holoplex command center, buried deep inside the ships entrails.
Sensor flight just isn't the Star Wars thing. Not in the movies, nor in the books, the games, or the comics. It the exact opposite of everything that Star Wars has ever shown to us. In Star Wars most computers are inferior to droids and most droids are inferior to humans. Pilots fly better than Asromechs (and TIE droids), Soldiers fight better than Battledroids and even when it comes to computer hacking, humans are better than droids. The New Republic had millions of Astromechs, but they had just one Zakarisz Ghent.
Ships not explicitly mentioned to have droid control systems and extraordinary sensors definately need ****pits with a good field of view for the human pilot to do the job.
--- "The sand people are easily startled, but they will soon be back, and in greater numbers." — Obi-Wan Kenobi
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9/1/2006, 10:37 pm
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psCargile
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Re: Nestt Series - Regenesis/Degenesis
I strongly disagree. The examples you gave are special situations.
I will agree that windows have a purpose, both psychological, and functional. They are used to alieve claustrophobia, and give a reference to the envirmoment. But no ISD bridge officer is going to spot an A-Wing approaching fast towards their bridge until that fighter is very close. Collision close.
Another Star Wars technical culture attribute is the lack of running or navigation lights that lets other pilots and traffic controllers see them in the nearby air and (space?) space. This means to me, that there is an advanced and sophisticated, intergrated navigation and communication system being employed. Such a system would let ships communicate to each other who is in their immediate airspace, where they are, and where they are going. Such a system could prevent pilots from making maneuvers that would create collisions. This would be an advancement to today's aircraft transponders. And certainly, certain hot shot pilots of YT-1300s could remove or disable such system that might impede said pilot's high piloting skills.
Just because we don't see or read evidence of such computer systems doesn't automatically mean that the computer systems are inferior to ours today, or not used at all, or nonexistant. To me, as far as SW goes, credibilty and reality go hand in hand. Sensor flight would be so advanced and so common as to not merit mention. Today, when a writer writes of a person driving a car, they don't get into the details of operating a motor vehicle because most adults know how it's done. Furthermore, most writers involved in the movies, books, games, and comics are not well educated in the aviation fields. If they were, we's see evidence of it. I am educated in that field and am striving to increase my knowledge. Mwolfe is also educated in that field. If you want credible technical aviation systems, the two people here you should listen to are me and mwolfe. If you choose not to, then you are not advancing the movement of Rob Brown--to elevate Star Wars to a technical (though fictional) reality. The Star Wars Deckplan Alliance aims to advance that movement, and it would seem to me that if the Star Wars Design Alliance is taking the same charge, then that would be your personal goal as well.
Now what I get out of this VOID is that you have no idea what you are doing. You know how to make ships that are pleasant to the eye, but the actual technicality of engineering, aeronautics, and aerospace is beyond you. Hence you play it off as unimportant and your designs are kitbashed. You don't wish to make Star Wars for the gamer more realistic and credible, but keep it dumbed down as it is presented to you, because that is the level at which you can best understand Star Wars technology. You're like a politician. You can talk about nothing and make it sound like something.
I'm warning everyone here not to be fooled by you. I've kept my mouth shut for far too long because I've believed it didn't matter. But is does matter. Those with knowledge should seek to educate those without. And those ignorate should accept new knowledge, and have the intelligence to double check what they are told by the near infinite resources of the internet. It is a goal of mine to make certain that what knowledge I present here in this forum, or any other, is accurate because I have a passion for people to realise that there is a "science" to science fiction, and currently that science is missing in a lot of sci-fi.
From the first post of yours that I've read I didn't like you. I read fluff. Bull****, to be precise. Utter garbage from a guy who really doesn't know anything, but wants people to think the opposite. And what I hate most, what really ****ing tears me apart is that a good friend--my best internet friend--was swayed by you. You are a poseur with a silvery tongue and Luc followed you. You are the sole reason for the schism between Frank Bonura and Luc Pichette, VOID. You! You are the wedge. Look at what you are saying: "Don't improve upon Star Wars for the RPGer". Don't follow Rob Brown, or Frank Bonura. Don't increase you knowledge. Keep Star Wars fantasy. Keep it unreal. Keep it stupid. I detest this attitude because I believe the Star War fan to be intelligent; to be capable of learning new scientific things. And while I'm not a RPGer, I would hope that a RPGer would want their game play as real as possible. I feel you want the opposite. You want to adhere to the ignorance of the canonical and official sources. I will point out to you that the original membership (those members before the schism) were drawn to the Star Wars Deckplan Alliance Forum not because of Luc Pichette, or Paul Cargile, or because of you or Eric Allen, but because of Frank Bonura, for what he was doing in carrying forth the mission of Rob Brown. The original membership believed in Frank's mission. They wanted to be a part of that. You robbed them of that. You seduced Luc and set him on the path to make bad decisions. You appeared intelligent, and Luc took to that.
Luc, I appeal to you to reevaluate this whole situation from months prior the schism to today. I've known you for far longer than VOID. I know you are a decent, respectable person. We have always had a connection, a relationship, and understanding that predates either Frank or VOID. We worked on the TIE rack. We were building the Appie. We were a team. You were an awesome 3D modeler and I wish you'd get back into it. You are a phenomenal 2d artist, concerning the SWDA (D as in Deckplan) projects you've undertaken: The A-wing, the Escape pod, the CR-90, the YT-2000, even R2. You've innovated a shading technique. You animated the A-Wing canopy. You are one of the Best of the Best. And I feel you are being brought down a mediocre influence. You shouldn't be listening to VOID, you should be telling VOID what is and what isn't. You have to make a choice. Do you beleive in the SWU that VOID upholds? This idea of keeping it to the sources. Or do you uphold the idea that the SWU can be made better for RPGers, even though you and I are not players. If you believe in the latter, you believe in the existance of a technical reality of Star Wars, a reality that Rob Brown sought, a reality that I believe exists, and a reality that Frank endeavors to create for his players and fans. If this is what you hold dear to your heart, then know that I am not your enemy, nor ever was. That your enemy calls you friend and sleeps in your camp, that your enemy is VOID, and that I and Frank felt this from the start.
Luc, if you recieve this as an email, or as a thread on my site, then you know that either VOID or Eric has deleted it from your forum prior to your discovering it. And if this is true, then it tells you of the character of at least one of them. It is my hope that you read this on your site unmolested. And if you find error in my judgement, present that error to me, and if I find it lacking, then we have truely gone our separate ways and our friendship should be nullified. It is my dearest hope that that is not the case.
The integrity of this post is my heartfelt honesty.
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9/2/2006, 2:57 am
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50stone
Imperial Tourist
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Location: London, England
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Re: Nestt Series - Regenesis/Degenesis
During the battle of yavin Red leader calls Luke whether he can SEE the enemy fighters, the pilots are scanning visually for them, Luke with his higher altitude spots them and the other pilot looks up and not down at his instruments.
No one can detect Luke when he gets into trouble because of a "heavy fire zone"
Vader and pilots are surprised by Han flying a large transport, they aren't warned by they're sensors of the approach and possible collision that a UCAS like system of modern day would perform for them.
So clearly sensors in SW do have their limitations, they are confused or blocked in close environments and by weapons discharges.
Also it is probable that the advance of sensors and jamming/stealth has continued at a balanced pace in SW so the only incorruptable sensor system remains the mark 1 eyeball unless the other has a cloaking device, which are large and expencive and incredibly rare.
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9/2/2006, 3:59 am
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The VOID
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Re: Nestt Series - Regenesis/Degenesis
Don't worry, Paul. I won't delete your post. However, it does not deserve much of a personal answer either. If you can only decide in a binary way, wether or not to speak your mind and only do so once you are in flaming mode, better STFU.
Last edited by The VOID, 9/2/2006, 4:44 am
--- "The sand people are easily startled, but they will soon be back, and in greater numbers." — Obi-Wan Kenobi
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9/2/2006, 3:59 am
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The VOID
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Re: Nestt Series - Regenesis/Degenesis
quote:
50stone wrote:
Vader and pilots are surprised by Han flying a large transport, they aren't warned by they're sensors of the approach and possible collision that a UCAS like system of modern day would perform for them.
Exactly.
And don't forget the AT-ATs on Hoth. The rebels know they are comming, when they come out of the fog. Fog should not be such a problem, when giant walkers are comming for you.
The most prominent mistake maken by advocats of alleged realism is twofold.
First there is the bluring of "realism" with "credibility". Realism draws upon reality, which credibility does not have to do. Gandalf the wizard is perfectly credible within the LOTR, as is Sauron and the Nazghul. Are they realistic? Hell no. Star Wars was never meant to be a realistic projection of future warfare. It's a fantasy tale and as such it has to be credible, not realistic. Spaceships and fighters with ****pits are not realistic, but they are credible. Completely enclosed VR control systems would be very realistic, but fighters taking each other down without ever reaching visual range is very boring and not part of that story.
The secondary thing is, that Star Wars was created in a certain spirit and mindset. The exact outlines of that spirit can and should be debated, but it can't just be discarded. Star Wars was born out of the 70s and it projects a lot of the mentality from that time. This affects technology, weapons, warfare and everything else.
Computers are huge monsters, hardly understood by most people and war is fought by troops with rifles.
If Star Wars WAS to be made realistic, it would not be even close anymore to what we know as Star Wars. Imperial Troops would not advance on Hoth with walkers and frontally assault the rebel base. They would probably launch smart hypersonic cluster-warhead missiles from within the shield area, taking out all the rebel troopers within a split second, firing some Cruise Missiles in the wake. Space fighters could not even come close to capital ships, because those could project kilometers wide death zones with sensor targeted PDS. How cool would the story of ANH have been, if R2 and C3PO had been taken down by half a dozen sensor controlled burtguns, seconds after fleeing the Tantive, before any human officer could have had second thoughts about firing or not? How cool would it have been, if the Death Star had detected the rebels right after planetary launch and taken them down by one single computer coordinated fire carpet with the turbolasers, long before they even got close? That would have been an awesome power demonstration, just to wipe them all out in one strike, like squashing a fly minutes before torching the remaining hive. It would not have fit the story, nor would it have fit the Universe.
Not even the Prequels change much about that. When Padme's ship fled Naboo, it was missed by most of the shots. How comes that if the Federation battleships had targeting systems that were even primitive by realistic Star Wars Techlevel? Eventually, when they crossed the blockades event horizon, they would have been ripped to shreds, shields or no shields, because most of the shots would have hit.
The thing is, that Star Wars is NOT our galaxy with funky technology and the Star Wars humans is NOT us. How different mindsets can affect a lot of things is easily shown throughout our own history. The way people think greatly affects how they use technology and even though the people in Star Wars have a lot in common with us, they are not thinking in the same ways.
"The whole fleet doesn't have enough firepower to destroy a planet."
Does that mean that Thermonuclear weapons are unknown in Star Wars? If not, why not drop 200 bombs the size of 10 Tsar bombs all on the same area in sequence? I am convinced the planet would have a really hard time to survive that in one piece.
Star Wars is inherently unrealistic, but it does not have to be uncredible. Making it more credible INSTEAD of more realistic should be the primary goal.
It is much more important to find ways how to incorporate realistic concepts into the way that the Star Wars Galaxy works.
I am sure there ARE superadvanced sensors, but there also have to be reasons, why they do not greatly affect the way things are done and it does also not mean, that all REAL sensor systems exist in the world of Star Wars.
When I work on Star Wars stuff, I aim at credible designs, not realistic designs. Realistically, most things known from Star Wars would never exist. Most stock light freighters would never be built, not could they be used the way most gamers do and which is supported by the movies and comics.
--- "The sand people are easily startled, but they will soon be back, and in greater numbers." — Obi-Wan Kenobi
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9/2/2006, 4:42 am
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