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The VOID
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Re: Moldy Crow
It is somehow fascinating, how this deteriorated into mindless fighting, even though nothing has actually happened and none of the important questions have been really answered so far. All I can see on the past two pages are pretty constructed arguments, that miss the spot by either comming short, or overshooting it.
An exchange of "You are wrong" vs. "No! I am right!" is NOT a discussion. That is is just childish.
This is not about socialism vs. individualism. Perhaps it is about anarchy vs. consentual community work, but even that is much too far fetched to be of practical use in this topic.
This is not about stealing anyone's work. Nothing HAS been stolen and as far as I can see, it was well CLARIFIED that there is no intention of stealing anything.
It is however about the ability to work in a team. If teamwork is the same as socialism, then a lot of corporations, association, organisations, communities and societies throughout this world were socialist. It has a tendency towards egomania to confuse such things too much.
I think I made it perfectly clear, what happens when someone pulls out and doesn't want his material used. It is used as least as possible. If it is possible not to use it at all, then this will be done. If that can't be done out of practical reasons, its use will be kept to a minimum. Any use at all cannot be excluded, however, because if that was the case, no community efforts would be possible if anyone suddenly decides to leave.
It should be made clear, that this community is NEITHER about producing art to please a single individual, NOR is it about using others to solely further individual goals. It is neither dictatorship, nor anarchy, nor socialism. Teamwork requires consentual and mutual respect and the ability to keep your ego at bay.
Lucas did NOT threaten to steal Quints work from him for his own pleasure and greed, nor did he claim he wanted to do it at any cost. When Lucas agreed to my previous statement, he also agreed to the clarifications it included. If parts of Quints effort are used despite his objections, it will have to be kept to a minimum to compensate for the damage the removal of the project caused to the community. Yes, working with others is not only a priviledge, but also a responsibility. If you work with others and employ others help, it is most unfair to tell them you changed your mind at the last minute, have a nice day and go hide and play whatever...
This is uncomfortable for both parties and Lucas tried to make clear is, that this discomfort has to be minimized for BOTH sides of the previous mutual agreement, not just one. Quint's interests are understandable and credible, yet they are not the sole interests involved. No solution that excludes either side is acceptable.
So for the last time: We will NOT butcher Quints work just for the sake of it, nor will we do so without a lot second thought and as much concern how to so as least as possible. I would not tolerate such actions anyway. If that is inacceptable, there is too much I in your concept of TEAM.
Now get your acts together, act like adults with some social skills and solve this without useless fighting.
Last edited by The VOID, 8/21/2006, 1:50 am
--- "The sand people are easily startled, but they will soon be back, and in greater numbers." — Obi-Wan Kenobi
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8/21/2006, 1:06 am
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Quint89
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Registered: 11-2005
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Re: Moldy Crow
I find all this unbelievable frustrating. We are all here, spending our free time for fun (or whatever). None of us really have any ‘rights’ to our work, anyone is able to steal it once it is in public domain. One thing that helps keep such art sites together is the sense of respect (I thought) we showed towards each others hard work. I believed it to be a fundamental rule that the person who draws the images/ships/thingies is the artist and they retain the right to choose what is done with it. Lucas is now twisting this whole idea of ‘community involvement’ to mean that none of the actual artists have any claim to their work once a single suggestion or idea is heeded. This is wrong and that is the whole of the matter. The meaning of a community project has been distorted for the sole purpose of allowing Lucas to do what he likes with MY work.
Lucas is correct this is not like the situation with Wardenwolf, there is one key difference. He was told to stop using the images from Frank unless he had permission (it was assumed he would not get it); he had neither permission nor a refusal. Lucas on the other hand has had a clear refusal to use my work and he has ‘found’ reasons why I apparently have no right to my own work and therefore its his to do with as he pleases.
quote:
VOID said:
. If I draw a picture of the Moldy Crow, I hold all intellectual properties to that picture and I can even sell the picture, as long as I don't claim to sell the design and as long as I don't sell it under the Star Wars brand. Artists have more rights than you may believe.
That is the whole issue here. I drew the pictures ergo it is my work (I’m pretty sure of that, I remember sitting in my chair doing it and if I recall there was no body sitting next to me helping).
quote:
Lucas said:
What you have previously posted is by definition, public domain and you can't stop anyone from using it to develop the Crow if they wish to.
This is a breach of the respect we all pay to each other as we spend our free time working on whatever projects we choose.
Lucas respects no bodies’ right to their work, and considers stealing it perfectly within his right. Because you can't stop him.
He is right I cannot stop him but we all know it is morally wrong of him to take people work without permission. I thank those who have spoke up in agreement of the simple principle of respecting an artists right to his work.
Thank You.
Last edited by Quint89, 8/21/2006, 5:21 am
---
The Catholic and the Communist are alike in assuming that an opponent cannot be both honest and intelligent.
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8/21/2006, 5:19 am
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kenposan
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Registered: 10-2005
Location: scifideckplans.com
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Re: Moldy Crow
Since when is Void the sole voice of reason here? (sarcasm).
I think ppl need to reread his last two posts as they really represent the issue well. In fact, they are pretty much the only two posts in this little tiff that make sense.
There are also two different arguements taking place here but people are turning them into the same arguement.
Let's take them one at a time:
1. Intelletual Property: Dan, Paul, Quint, and Void are right- the images belong to Quint. As much as others may have had input into the concept, HE and only he drew anything (as far as I am aware). That makes the pic his. End of story.
2. Theft: Lucas has never stated he was stealing Quint's work and finishing it. What Lucas stated, if I read it right, was that he was going to finish this project. I believe Lucas noted that research would need to be done again and all source images reviewed. I do not believe Lucas' intent is to take Quint's drawing and simply finish it, but I do believe he wants to use Quint's drawing as a source.
Other:
Wardenwolf. He's gone. Trying to compare the two situations is only fanning the flames of arguement. Stay focused on this situation without trying to draw comparisons. Both sides have dug in their heels and both have strong perceptions of how things went down. Continuing to discuss Wardenwolf will only bog resolution of this situation down.
--- The Universe speaks in many languages, but only one voice.
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8/21/2006, 6:21 am
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Uncle Servo
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Registered: 10-2005
Location: Servotopia
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Re: Moldy Crow
Alright, here's a quick two cents' worth from me.
quote:
SWDA Statement Of Purpose
The purpose of the Star Wars Design Alliance is to develop functional and plausible designs from all Star Wars sources. While originally intended as a resource for Star Wars role-playing games, we feel that the designs and blueprints are also an excellent resource for developing 3d models.
The SWDA Forums have always been intended as a means of producing a resource for the Star Wars community -- a means to an end (in this case, the gallery site).
With the exception of the modification jobs and other RPG projects in the Original WIPs forum, every design project started here is viewed as a potential addition to the gallery site. If we're not trying to actually produce finished products, then we might as well be just masterbating as it's going to benefit about as many people.
I understand the arguments about Quint's work being his. I understand the 'work for hire' versus 'artist/creator rights' issue from my experience in the comic book field. If Lucas ever intended to strike Quint's credit for his work on the project, I would rather quit these forums completely then allow him to do so. I also fully supported Paul's declaring his original works 'off limits,' as they were fully original concepts and regardless of who actually did the artwork it was his IP to begin with.
On the other hand, I also understand that it's the responsility of the SWDA management to ensure that projects are eventually completed. I am in the process of compiling a project status thread and have been doing so for a while now -- and quite frankly, the number of inactive projects are staggering. Declaring projects 'abandoned' and opening them up to new artists may seem disrepectful to some, but
Yes, I can understand Quint's 'pride of ownership' in this matter... but at the same time, I find it rather hypocritical -- and honestly, outright selfish -- that while he laments the lack of project completion he not only is responsible for a number of projects that AREN'T getting completed but by deleting his images he makes it much more difficult for them to BE completed.
No, we're not perfect... but we are trying to create the best damn community soup possible, and we're trying to feed a ****LOAD of people the best we can.
If Lucas finishing the Crow using Quint's artwork from the SWDA thread as a source (and still giving him full credit) is theft, then everyone here who has started a deckplan of an existing Star Wars design is guilty of theft as well -- as that's exactly what we do when we trace a WEG shape/view or try to copy a reference picture -- only more so as that is pulling from outside sources and not one that was developed here in this very thread.
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8/21/2006, 7:26 am
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kenposan
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Re: Moldy Crow
Servo wrote:
quote:
If Lucas finishing the Crow using Quint's artwork from the SWDA thread as a source (and still giving him full credit) is theft, then everyone here who has started a deckplan of an existing Star Wars design is guilty of theft as well -- as that's exactly what we do when we trace a WEG shape/view or try to copy a reference picture -- only more so as that is pulling from outside sources and not one that was developed here in this very thread.
The key in there is "using Quint's artwork...as a source."
I believe Lucas intends to redraw the thing using Quint's art as a source, not as a "trace it over and call it mine."
But I guess we need to know from Quint what his intentions are. Is he stopping the project (for whatever reasons) or is he coming back to it at a later date. If it is stopping, the Lucas can and should pick it up. If Quint is coming back to it, we shouldn't duplicate work. Yeah, it sucks that a ship so near completion is going to sit, but hey, that's life.
--- The Universe speaks in many languages, but only one voice.
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8/21/2006, 8:32 am
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Uncle Servo
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Location: Servotopia
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Re: Moldy Crow
quote:
kenposan wrote:
But I guess we need to know from Quint what his intentions are. Is he stopping the project (for whatever reasons) or is he coming back to it at a later date. If it is stopping, the Lucas can and should pick it up. If Quint is coming back to it, we shouldn't duplicate work. Yeah, it sucks that a ship so near completion is going to sit, but hey, that's life.
From Quint's own post on page 15 of this thread:
quote:
I was hoping to leave quietly for a while and maybe return at a later date, due to your unreasonable behaviour in this matter I not sure that is appropriate anymore.
The key word here is "MAYBE." I am not privy to each and every word that has passed between Quint and Lucas outside of these posts, but it seems that even at the start Quint had given absolutely no guarantee whatsoever that he would ever finish this project (or the other ones he was working on for that matter). If he had said something like "give me three months away from it so I can come back fresh," or "I'm going to be really busy for the next few months and updates will be few -- please don't consider this abandoned," then I know if I were in Lucas' position I would most likely have honored his request.
And as for respect... if it can be argued that Lucas wanting to complete the project is a lack of respect for Quint, then it can also be argued that Quint has shown a lack of respect for what Lucas and Void are trying to build by requesting that his artwork be placed 'off limits' even though he couldn't (or wouldn't) guarantee he'd finish it himself.
Last edited by Uncle Servo, 8/21/2006, 1:44 pm
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8/21/2006, 1:43 pm
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psCargile
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Registered: 09-2005
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Re: Moldy Crow
You're right VOID. Socialism wasn't the right word to use. I should have said communism, because what I was thinking was more along the line of nobody does anything for themselves, just for the collective good of the group, and thus no one is entitled to own any of the work that they do.
Let's review what has angered Luc, to paraphrase him, he is angry not so much that Quint has decided to put his projects on hold, but that Quint has removed his artwork.
Now Luc is a damn good artist, and considering the amount of detail and quality workmanship that he has put into his own projects, I would guess that Quint's removal of artwork would be a trivial thing, and that Luc could do the orthos based on the research that he himself has conducted. And thus without Quint's (and Frank's , for that matter) involvment, he can do the Moldy Crow the way that he sees fit. So we the audience of this exchange wonder then why Quint's 3d model renders are needed? Luc has explicitly stated that he has saved many, if not all, of those images. They were saved prior to this event, and so I ask what for?
All this could have been avoided if Luc just kept his mouth shut, let Quint go about his way, and at a later date resume the work on the Moldy Crow without anyone being the wiser as to the references he used to accomplish such a task.
Now you're stucking eating crow.
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8/21/2006, 6:04 pm
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kenposan
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Re: Moldy Crow
quote:
Now you're stucking eating crow.
Pardon the pun.
--- The Universe speaks in many languages, but only one voice.
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8/21/2006, 6:58 pm
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psCargile
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Re: Moldy Crow
Fundementally, I think that Luc got pissed at Quint for yanking his ****, and Luc wanted to piss Quint off in return. Well, it pissed off a lot more people than just Quint.
Am I wrong in this assessment?
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8/23/2006, 7:26 am
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