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jlg1
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Re: PARENTS IDEAS OF PROGRESS?
Hi Dave,
Yeah I thought that was a bit weird - on the one hand he "isnt practicing enough" on the other he is but the "times dont suit the mum"?
If it was my son and he was practising at all I would be happy! LOL (going by the excuses I get from the younger ones - one boy this week said he couldn't practce because his sister was "throwing up!" LOL (I thought that was a good one!) 
James
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11/25/2009, 7:26 pm
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Don P
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Re: PARENTS IDEAS OF PROGRESS?
Yes, he would definitely be taught drop tunings,slipknot or whatever he wanted to learn as long as he can handle it. That is the way most teacher do it in this area.
If he doesn't know his open chords yet then fine. Go ahead and teach him Sweet Home Alabama and things like that. Even kids that want to learn metal I make sure they go through some open chord songs to learn the basic chords. After that I use songs in whatever style THEY want to learn to teach them what I want them to learn.
I suggest a song to them and if they are not to crazy about it then I will not bother to continue trying to get them to play it. They will not practice it.
If the student likes Sweet Home Alabama or some Creedence then fine. Go for it. If not I would not suggest trying to get him to play this stuff if he wants to play metal. It may be getting stale to you but the student may be very happy with what he is learning. That is what counts!
If what he wants to learn is way beyond what he is ready for then find some more simple things in that style. Black Sabbath, Older Judas Priest or find some newer songs that are easier to play in that style.
The majority of students I teach are students that are into hard rock and metal. I have never had any problems with teaching them whatever they need to know to become a good musician. I'm talking the ones that actually are ready to put in the work. I've taught some that came to me only knowing some power chords and one pentatonic scale and brought them up to knowing how to play all their modes,different symmetrical scales, playing the chord tones to the passing chords, 7th chords etc... They are playing in bands and going on to possibly pursue a career in music.
Note that I said 7th chords. In hard rock and Metal there isn't alot of 11,13 and other extended chords being played in this style. It just doesn't sound like that style anymore. You can use them in more clean parts but they sound like crap distorted.
My point here is that what good would it be to show them these chords if they will never use them. I usually will show them how to figure out these chords themselves using theory if they are willing to work on it. Otherwise I will teach them what they want. You need to remember not everyone wants to become a great musician. They just want to play their favorite songs and what is wrong with that?
I've struggled with this trying to make them good musicians thing since I started teaching. I recently changed my way of thinking and focused my efforts into teaching the student what they want. I then use this to branch off into discussing certain subjects that will help make them better musicians. The focus though will be on what they want to learn. Again I think of the fact that most of them will just be picking up the guitar and jamming on their favorite tunes for the rest of their lives.
Ever since I changed my way of thinking my students have been much more happy. They practice more now. I have also luckily picked up a few new students. Not where I want to be yet but it's better.
I'm certainly not telling you how to teach James but I just think that no matter what style you teach them you have plenty of subject matter to expand their knowledge. So why not just teach them the style they want to learn. They will be much more happy and in return more willing to work on other subjects.
Again I think it goes back to what styles you are good at teaching. I play and teach in the hard rock and metal styles so I'm never at a loss of what to teach in this style. If I were to teach someone jazz, although I went to a jazz school and learned all the music theory related to jazz, I would be at a loss after a certain point. This is because I don't play this style myself. I don't know have the important insight that only people that play jazz have. What I do is just steer student to another teacher if they want to get deep into jazz but unfortunately that would not be as easy for you to do because I'm sure you get alot of students wanting to learn these heavier styles.
I guess the whole point is again like I said before. If your student is happy he will practice. If he practices he will learn. He will also be more willing to stretch out into areas he is not comfortable with. Remember that most student are not interested in becoming great musicians! That is the way I teach now anyways 
Man, I didn't realize how much I was rambling on!
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11/25/2009, 8:06 pm
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clearwater1
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Re: PARENTS IDEAS OF PROGRESS?
And a very interesting ramble it was.
I think I tend toward James's way of presenting lessons, except in a wider way- I give them a little taste of everything, even if it's only in half a lesson, than I let them decide which way to go. I've had locked-in Metal fan early teens see open C tuning and a slide in full flight and end up a year later buying a National Resonator...I've had kids from a household where the CD player is stacked with only two kinds of music- Country, and Western- try Steve Vai or Carlos Santana and still be playing that style twenty years on and loving it.
And in a classroom situation I've had Aboriginal kids with the regulation cap backwards and clothes chosen by an grossly overweight blind person, who were raised on a houshold musical diet of Rap and Hip-hop, come to appreciate the values of classical guitar.
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11/25/2009, 9:24 pm
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jlg1
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Re: PARENTS IDEAS OF PROGRESS?
Ok Don,
No dont get me wrong I agree - only a small percentage are keen on becoming good "musicians" and I dont force that on anyone.
It was an eye opener for me when his mum said he didnt do much practice (as she thinks anyway) because given his age this boy has picked guitar up really quickly i.e, he's not even with me a year I dont think and he is doing really well.
I dont think we are anywhere near the stage that because I'm not into metal etc.. that I cant teach it (to this boy I mean) - far from it - he has a lot of ground to cover before we ever get to that - what is frustrating is that in what he does want to learn we cant get into what I would also like him to learn (and what he has enjoyed in the past) - as I was saying to strike a balance is difficult - maybe as you said some "older" stuff would cover these areas.
He 's actually pretty well up on other stuff which for someone his age is a good thing I think.
As I was saying I am planning his lessons for the next few weeks and I am totally open to what he wants to learn but when I mentioned the song getting "stale" I am talking of his point of view not mine, as he commented "we've been at this for weeks now"
His comment came last week which lead me to think HE was getting fed up with the one song taking so long to learn.
I could sense maybe he was getting a bit bored with it?
I'm feeling well, as this tune is 5-7 mins long (as most of this stuff is) thats the score - if it is to be covered well.
I actually have the patience of a saint sometimes! LOL and would sit on the same thing for months if someone wanted to - not a problem.
The way I look at any song played is practice and this usually also gives the student at least something relevant toand new to learn. Which of course is a good thing.
I just dont want him playing this and stuff very similar to this for the next while and his mum maybe on my back about him not being able to play a "tune" - in my opinion he can play and play well - if his mum doesnt think so - well there's not much I can about that - other than have a chat and explain the way it is - if she was to see the "average" students I have and have had in the past she would be grateful he is as far on as he is given the short space of time he has been playing.
I think there is a bit of a "comparison" being drawn by his mum - she said his dad started guitar at the same time and can "pick" as she put it, any tune - but the son can't "finish a song" I think was the words she used.
I cant understand that - the joke is - even his aunt was commenting when he started at how well he was picking it up as he was playing stuff for the family.
I mean what can you do? - trying to please people is not the way to go - as you say the focus is on him if the mum has real issues with this again I'll have to address it with her and put her "in the picture" about how far he has come - even to this stage.
I think it caught me by surprise the mum just "dropping in" to the lesson the other night - I wasnt expecting it.
To be honest its not been a good week with a guy leaving on Monday - that was the start of my week and it hasnt got much better!
Maybe Don you're thinking as I'm not into metal its not a good idea to teach it? No offence of course.
I admit it wouldn't be my favourite style but I have an open mind and bring this into lessons - if there is a tune in there I'm happy enough - but you've got to admit not all of these bands write good quality songs? I mean compared to the songwriting skills of their predecessors i.e, Led Zep, Black Sabbath, AC/DC etc.. There are good and bad bands as with any style I suppose.
As you mentioned the facts are most of my students are into metal and this has been my "bread and butter" with 60% of them over the last 2/3 years so passing them onto someone else isnt really an option.
To be honest I dont even know any local teachers that do this stuff as I have had quite a few come from other tutors to me and stay with me - possibly I have been teaching what they couldnt get from other teachers?.
Anyway sorry for the rant - as with all things that come up - there is a solution in there somewhere!
James
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11/25/2009, 9:29 pm
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jlg1
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Re: PARENTS IDEAS OF PROGRESS?
Hi Pete,
It was a bit of a ramble wasnt it! LOL
I think though you've summed it up - you never know what way they want to go - maybe in this situation a quick chat and if I throw some options out there and see what he wants might be a good idea?
If its metal - then so be it - and I'll "sneak" something else in! 
James
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11/25/2009, 9:42 pm
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Don P
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Re: PARENTS IDEAS OF PROGRESS?
No, I'm definitely not saying that you shouldn't teach metal. In a perfect world it would be great for you to teach in the music that you are very enthusiastic about unfortunately you need to adapt to what people want. I just luck out because the majority of what students want to learn is the style of music I grew up loving and played for many,many years.If most people wanted to learn jazz, country or whatever then I would end up having to adapt to that.
Alot of the times I find that the parents need to be educated also. They can't compare one person to another person. People learn at different levels. They need to look at whether the kid is enthusiastic about playing or bored. If they are bored then something needs to change. If they are having fun and learning who cares if they can't play a whole song yet. Like you said some students get bored after they learn the main riff of the song. So is it better to bore the kid do death learning all the other parts? After awhile when they start playing with friends they'll want to start learning complete songs. Again I think alot of parents need to be educated also.
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11/25/2009, 9:52 pm
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Don P
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Re: PARENTS IDEAS OF PROGRESS?
quote:
clearwater1 wrote:
And a very interesting ramble it was.
I think I tend toward James's way of presenting lessons, except in a wider way- I give them a little taste of everything, even if it's only in half a lesson, than I let them decide which way to go. I've had locked-in Metal fan early teens see open C tuning and a slide in full flight and end up a year later buying a National Resonator...I've had kids from a household where the CD player is stacked with only two kinds of music- Country, and Western- try Steve Vai or Carlos Santana and still be playing that style twenty years on and loving it.
And in a classroom situation I've had Aboriginal kids with the regulation cap backwards and clothes chosen by an grossly overweight blind person, who were raised on a houshold musical diet of Rap and Hip-hop, come to appreciate the values of classical guitar.
Yes, the key here is to introduce other styles to them. If they have no interest then I won't bother. They are there to learn the music they enjoy listening to. It would be nice for a student to broaden there musical taste but if they just play the same style the rest of their lives its not the end of the world. If they are having fun playing then all is good!
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11/25/2009, 9:59 pm
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Swing feel
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Re: PARENTS IDEAS OF PROGRESS?
Introducing other styles is great, as long as the style you are trying to get them into isn't presented as being superior to what they are already in to. You just have to tread carefully, and know when to stop pushing.
Also, remember that most of the truely great guitarists out there are only great in one style. I doubt BB King would make much of a shredder. Wes Montgomery would probably have been clueless if you asked him to play something on classical guitar. Slash would likely sound laughable playing bebop. To really achieve greatness, most people have to really focus on one thing exclusively.
James, what I would do in the case of your student and his parent would be to pick a song that he is into, and really make it an ongoing process of covering the whole thing and getting it sounding good. While you are working on it, work on other things to keep him from getting burnt out on it. On the other riffs that you work on with him, don't be too strict or pushy about things being right. Save that for the song that is being worked to completion. If all goes well, that'll hopefully satisfy his mom and take his playing up a notch too, without turning him off the guitar and your lessons.
The mom does sound like a piece of work, though. The comment about him practicing at odd times was a little strange. And the comparison of him to his dad, who has obviously been playing way longer, is absurd.
I have a student/parent situation that is a bit hard to deal with too. The student, a 14 year old, contacted me about getting jazz lessons. At first I was looking forward to it because jazz is my favorite kind of music, and therefore I love teaching it. But, I came to find out that the student has absolutely no interest in jazz. His parents want him learning it because they feel it is more high brow and sophisticated, and would eventually make him some sort of well rounded renaisance man (I guess). He's played guitar for a few years, and has gone through 3 teachers before me, but stopped with them because "he had no more he could learn from them" - the parent's words, not his. This kid is also taking oil painting lessons, tennis lessons, and is taking a full load of advanced courses at school. Needless to say, he has no time for practicing, let alone practicing a rather difficult form of music he has no interest in learning or listening to.
So, I'm basically just switching over to teaching him stuff he requests to learn, along with slowly learning some theory fundamentals to keep his parents satisfied. He does seem to have a genuine interest in the guitar, just not in jazz. So, my approach is basically catering to his interests, with a little of what his parents want thrown in. So far, it's worked for a couple of months at least.
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11/26/2009, 3:24 am
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clearwater1
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Re: PARENTS IDEAS OF PROGRESS?
The poor kid needs parents like that like he needs a hole in the head, but there is no shortage of them around here, and most of the kids I teach have something going on every day after school- sport and coaching in maths and english for the boys, and ballet and sport for the girls.
The kids slot guitar into one day per week, and seem to cope somehow, but it seems a sterile and overcontrolled childhood compared to the one I enjoyed.
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11/26/2009, 11:44 am
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jlg1
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Re: PARENTS IDEAS OF PROGRESS?
quote:
Don P wrote:
Like you said some students get bored after they learn the main riff of the song. So is it better to bore the kid do death learning all the other parts? After awhile when they start playing with friends they'll want to start learning complete songs. Again I think alot of parents need to be educated also.
There's know way I would want him bored - its difficult to guage even though he mentioned that, he seemed "into" working on through to the next part in that particular lesson. But I can understand - I was very impatient when I was learning and to sit on the one thing (especially at his age) must be difficult - you know what kids are like with concentration spans etc...!
I do have a few other tunes he had mentioned as we made a list a while back - again as I was saying I'll look at this and maybe throw something else in?
Just talking of that Don - have you come across any stuff in this style that includes Barre Chords - he mentioned a My Chemical Romance Song - that has some in it - this is on his list I think - if I can get him covering these within his song choices - even better. As you were saying most of this stuff, the harmony anyway is based on power chords and mixing that with riffs etc.
quote:
Swing feel wrote:
So, I'm basically just switching over to teaching him stuff he requests to learn, along with slowly learning some theory fundamentals to keep his parents satisfied. He does seem to have a genuine interest in the guitar, just not in jazz. So, my approach is basically catering to his interests, with a little of what his parents want thrown in. So far, it's worked for a couple of months at least.
Hi Swingfeel,
My situation does sound a bit similar to yours i.e, keeping the parents happy - in my case, I would look at it 80/90% what he wants and give him something for "mum and dad" as well- just talking of his dad - he is playing the same length of time as the boy - but apparently things "sound" better to the mum than what the boy is playing. Thats how it came across anyway.
The mum is actually really nice but this was a crazy comment as we all know everyone learns a different pace - I dont really believe in comparisons. The dad is porbabaly playing some traditional irish stuff, or SHA, that kind of thing. Which the mum percieves as "real songs" LOL
The parents sometimes do need educated I agree with that - funny these comments always come from a parent who DOESNT play guitar. So she is commenting on something she doesnt really know anything about.
I'll have a look at what was on his "song list" and have a chat with him and see if we can mix some things in there and get a bit of what he wants and what he needs - both happening.
James
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11/26/2009, 2:11 pm
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