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kobe27
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Re: 1602
quote:
tb sivana wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks Neil Gaiman is a bit overrated? I read the 'Sandman' series and 'American Gods', etc...but they didn't compare to our boy Alan.
No, you're not.
Though Sandman was great, IMHO, just as the Miracleman issues, his recent work (i.e. the past four or five years) has left me cold. American Gods and Neverwhere were, again in MY opinion, good workmanlike efforts but nothing to rave about (though Gods keeps picking up awards right and left) .
Having said that, it might be unfair to compare Gaiman with Moore on the strength of a lackluster miniseries (though I still have some hope he can surprise us in the end) . After all, a Gaiman fan might bring up any of Moore's Badrock miniseries, or the Deathblow by Blows mini and laugh us outr of the room.
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17/1/04, 17:24
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tb sivana
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Re: 1602
It's true that they can't all be masterpieces...and I'll give Gaiman the workmanlike quality of everything he does. He IS a craftsman, if not, (at least so far as I have read), inspired to unique things, with the possible exception of 'The Books of Magic', which I think is the best thing he ever did.
As for Moore's near misses...you're quite right. At least he never wrote Liefeld's 'Boof and the Bruise Crew', though God Knows, anyone could have improved it!
Many writers have off issues. I just made the mistake of reading Geoff John's latest issue of 'Avengers' in which he has a big fight between Ant-Man and the Jack of Hearts, ending in a suicidal sacrifice by Jack . This may be the worst comic writing in a long, long time, and yet I liked some of his early issues of JSA. I feel the same way about Kurt Busiek, whose 'Astro City' series was wonderful in the early issues, but has fallen off quite a bit. At least he's making it up to us with his wonderful retro JLA/Avengers series.
---
Department of Redundancy Dept.
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17/1/04, 19:42
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kobe27
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Re: 1602
If you liked his Books of Magic mini (not that dodgy ongoing Reiber wrote), I'm surprised you haven't really liked Sandman.
Again, I'd urge you to try it again. If by Season of Mists you're still not convinced then drop it, by all means, but I don't think you will.
Regarding Geoff Johns, I have avoided ALL of his stuff like the plague. Like Chuck Austen I still don't understand why everyone likes their stuff. (Well, admittedly, almost every online message board I've visited curses Austen's name and his work, and yet he writes four to five titles every month, so clearly somebody out there likes it).
I agree the Local Heroes mini hasn't quite been up to the average Astro City standards, but I believe the upcoming Dark Age (as well as the Silver Agent story at long last) should deliver the goodies.
Last edited by kobe27 (Local user), 17/1/04, 20:32
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17/1/04, 20:31
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ntnon
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"History ain't what it used to be..."
quote:
loui5 wrote:
I agree that 'some' comics set in the past can be very successful. Otherwise, I wouldn't even be on this board.
Yeah.. sorry, low blow. 
quote:
loui5 wrote:
But, in 1602, there doesn't truly to be any great differences between a Marvel plotline set in 1602 and one set today.
You're probably right... but two mini-points:
1. Probably wouldn't suddenly vindicate the story, but that could be part of the point...
2. I haven't really read any marvel comics.. ever. Excepting a couple of collected things at the library (basically X-Men and a Spider-man), and my friend's copies of Mr Morrison's New-X-Men... 
quote:
loui5 wrote:
Doom has the Fantastic Four trapped? Heard it!
X-men faced against Magneto? Seen it!
 ..because I haven't, though.. so I don't get that deja vu..
quote:
loui5 wrote:
I was very excited about the concept, but there seems to truly be nothing at risk in this title. It's a cute gimmick, but the heroes will prevail in much the same way as they always have in Marvel, and they just seem to be dressed differently.
..isn't that kind of the problem with (nearly) EVERY comic, though!? Pick up a Superman comic... "Oh no! Will he die..?" ....no. "How will Batman find a way out of this mess?!" ..no idea, but he will.
Recently (I'm told..! ..and some of them have been in libraries.) there have been some more "realistic" tales told across the board, but there's a fine line. Well, several fine lines, really.
On the one hand, comics need to be escapism, so you can immerse yourself in a world of superheroics and/or devilry and/or faction and/or myths. You can lose yourself and just enjoy the read.
On the other hand, it needs to 'keep it real' as the annoying, cloying phrase has it. People are starting to say (stupid?) things like '..a man who can fly..? Isn't that.. a bit Unrealistic..?!'  I know! Let's write a comic where nothing happens. BUT! It's real. That'll work.. just like 'Big Brother' and 'I'm a Celebrity... Get me out of here!' (note the exclamation mark..), or Fame Academy, Pop Idol, Pop Stars, Pop Stars: The Rivals, Wife Swap, Celebrity Colonic Irrigation (..that did actually happen..  ) and programmes about "real people" on television, which are so popular these days... REALITY?!?! I can watch people sitting around and not do anything by sitting in a pub/bar/seminar room/lecture/lounge/restaurant... and it's generally more interesting, too! 
...I appear to have rambled on.. so.. in conclusion, yes, the idea sounded great. Yes, the actual comics haven't been quite so good. Yes, I'll buy the remaining two anyway. Yes, the 'goodies' will probably win out... but... that's to make sure children don't think crime pays. Or something.
Oh, how we love Big Brother..
--- "Dizzy..."
'Quite who surgically attached his heart to his eyes remains something of a mystery...' |
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18/1/04, 7:39
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ntnon
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The Master-piece-Mould
quote:
tb sivana wrote:
It's true that they can't all be masterpieces...and I'll give Gaiman the workmanlike quality of everything he does. He IS a craftsman, if not, (at least so far as I have read), inspired to unique things, with the possible exception of 'The Books of Magic', which I think is the best thing he ever did.
It certainly has the distinction of managing to be one of those 'Proper-"Unique"' things like Watchmen and Big Brother that are instantly seized, copied, mass produced and fed back without many hints of the original 'greatness'... (errr... delete 'Big Brother' or the word 'greatness' to make that make sense, but... you know what I mean. Possibly..)
quote:
tb sivana wrote:
As for Moore's near misses...you're quite right. At least he never wrote Liefeld's 'Boof and the Bruise Crew', though God Knows, anyone could have improved it!
Many writers have off issues. I just made the mistake of reading Geoff John's latest issue of 'Avengers' in which he has a big fight between Ant-Man and the Jack of Hearts, ending in a suicidal sacrifice by Jack . This may be the worst comic writing in a long, long time, and yet I liked some of his early issues of JSA.
I've never really been an 'author' (or even artist) person, really... so I don't find that too often. I would tend to dislike (or, more than likely 'like less') a certain issue/title/arc, I think...
Clearly there are exceptions to this, and increasingly it's a certain author who'll get me to buy something, but... a good story is a good story. A good author is only as good as his last work... (cor, that sounds profound... must be wrong.. )
For example... DC and whoever will always offer the high paid contracts to the creators/writers/artists who have just had a 'hit mini-series!!!' or something, without necessarily targetting skills to the job at hand.
Which can work. But can also not... there are times when people on all levels have thought they had a 'Good Idea', but when it actually comes to writing/drawing/planning/selling it... it turns out not to be so. To chose just one tangentially almost on a separate point, but.. stream-of-conciousness is 'in', apparantly...) a writer of lesser stature than Mr Moore, writing a comic of lesser superbity might well have been severely castigated for the increasing delays of LoEG had either of these facts not been true.
The poem in V2 is marvellous, because we're in a throwaway culture now.. they keep bringing up the examples of 'Only Fools and Horses' and 'Blackadder' as programmes which just wouldn't be made these days, because the initial viewing figures were so poor... in the same way, the old addage "You cannot rush a work of genius" is being replaced and superceded... while at the same time, the prospective audience is shrinking (blame.... capitalism!), becoming more discerning(!) (blame..... market trends!), less likely to have a sustainable interest (blame... TV!), has less time (blame... pressures of work!), more lazy (blame... TV dinners!), more easily offended (blame... Political Corrapness!), less easily offended (blame... rap music! Violence in films! Eastenders! Video games!) and prone to complain (blame... compensation culture!)
So.... comics people (and everyone in general, new writers quotas are apparantly being halved in favour of keeping 'established' writers on the books, because 'they will sell' rather than taking a risk.. ) are under pressure to perform, and perform Well. Continuously.
...ramble, ramble, ramble..
quote:
tb sivana wrote:
I feel the same way about Kurt Busiek, whose 'Astro City' series was wonderful in the early issues, but has fallen off quite a bit. At least he's making it up to us with his wonderful retro JLA/Avengers series.
I've only just properly discovered Mr Busiek... Arrowsmith is excellent (when it comes out.. ), JLA/Avengers is superb, and I think it was he who wrote 'Marvels', as well, maybe..? Hmm... something else to read.. 
--- "Dizzy..."
'Quite who surgically attached his heart to his eyes remains something of a mystery...' |
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18/1/04, 7:55
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ntnon
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Oooh.... controversial!
quote:
kobe27 wrote:
Though Sandman was great, IMHO, just as the Miracleman issues, his recent work (i.e. the past four or five years) has left me cold. American Gods and Neverwhere were, again in MY opinion, good workmanlike efforts but nothing to rave about (though Gods keeps picking up awards right and left) .
...there's maybe another problem that is so obvious that it's frequently unnoticed: opinion. 
Opinions are arbitrary and assigned for different reasons and from different people from different backgrounds at different times.. and yet todays media culture will insist on dumbing it all down into easy soundbites... ..which may or may not be irrelevant, but I'm in the swing of just.. moaning.. at the moment..
I haven't read 'American Gods', I have read the complete ten-volume Sandman, and the one-off Dream Hunters. I've read both Death miniseries', Violent Cases, Signal to Noise, Stardust, Spawn: Angela, Midnight Days, The Last Temptation, Coraline and the Books of Magic.
I understand Mr Gaiman has written a biography of Duran Duran, which is... interesting, and a book about HHGG, which is applaudable. Sandman, I think is a masterpiece, and on multiple levels. It should be assigned in schools along with Watchmen, LoEG, and probably Preacher. Death: The Time of Your Life I did not enjoy much... too dense and confusing, The High Cost of Living was marvellous - and the little 'Death Talks about Life' is one of the best factual public health things I've seen.
I enjoyed the co-Alice Cooper Last Temptation, Coraline was an (other) Alice-derivative, not bad, but not good...
Stardust was pretty good, Violent Cases was clever and well written, Signal to Noise had some superb one-liners, and held together well. The Midnight Days collection was hit and miss, but reasonably so, and Spawn: Angela was alright, too. In the same way as Mr Moore's 'Blood Feud' was a nicely written Spawn tale.
quote:
kobe27 wrote:
Having said that, it might be unfair to compare Gaiman with Moore on the strength of a lackluster miniseries (though I still have some hope he can surprise us in the end) . After all, a Gaiman fan might bring up any of Moore's Badrock miniseries, or the Deathblow by Blows mini and laugh us outr of the room.
Quite! Everyone can find something that missed more than hit, or just something that wasn't as good.... there's something to be said for bad writers, because when they do something 'average', in comparison, it's 'good'. Whereas, someone whose standard is 'Very good' producing work that is merely 'good' or 'average' (and these comparative titles are basically nonsense anyway, because opinions differ), seems to have made a catastrophic mistake.
It's a shame...
--- "Dizzy..."
'Quite who surgically attached his heart to his eyes remains something of a mystery...' |
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18/1/04, 8:48
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ntnon
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Recommending et al.
quote:
kobe27 wrote:
If you liked his Books of Magic mini (not that dodgy ongoing Reiber wrote), I'm surprised you haven't really liked Sandman.
Again, I'd urge you to try it again. If by Season of Mists you're still not convinced then drop it, by all means, but I don't think you will.
..wrong addressee, perhaps, Kobe..? ...but, echoed. It's long, and it's quite in depth, but its really jolly good.
quote:
kobe27 wrote:
Regarding Geoff Johns, I have avoided ALL of his stuff like the plague.
...Geoff Johns... umm.. don't think I've read anything by him at all...
quote:
kobe27 wrote:
Like Chuck Austen I still don't understand why everyone likes their stuff.
...Uncanny X-Men man, maybe..? I think I've read something by him. Don't remember it being desperately good, but.. I might be confused.
quote:
kobe27 wrote:
(Well, admittedly, almost every online message board I've visited curses Austen's name and his work, and yet he writes four to five titles every month, so clearly somebody out there likes it).
Differing opinions, differing views.. and also, as you say - he must have impressed someone. And people can't be dropping it all over the place, or someone would notice... so.. [There's also something to be said at times for a fan-based dislike on the strength of a minor niggle.. 'he killed my favourite character', or 'I could write things better than him, but I don't get any money...' ...which is a shame, but probably a sign of the times. People in positions of 'authority' or 'power' or 'entertainment' are no longer respected by and large. Just derided. "We put them on the plinth, no lets knock them off."  ]
quote:
kobe27 wrote:
I agree the Local Heroes mini hasn't quite been up to the average Astro City standards, but I believe the upcoming Dark Age (as well as the Silver Agent story at long last) should deliver the goodies.
...I'll have to look out for that then. Probably from afar...
--- "Dizzy..."
'Quite who surgically attached his heart to his eyes remains something of a mystery...' |
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18/1/04, 8:57
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kobe27
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Re: Recommending et al.
quote:
ntnon wrote:
..wrong addressee, perhaps, Kobe..? ...but, echoed. It's long, and it's quite in depth, but its really jolly good.
...Geoff Johns... umm.. don't think I've read anything by him at all...
Ooops. You're quite correct, nton. I was addressing SP Smith there, not TB Sivana. My bad.
Geoff Johns is the bloke writing JSA (and The Flash, Hawkman, Teen Titans, the recently-concluded JSA: All-Stars and up until recently, the Avengers).
EVERYbody I know has recommended these titles to me. So I tried them. I really, REALLY didn't like any of them. Except for the All-Stars mini backup tales (which, not coincidentally, were NOT written by Johns, and also had the added benefit of being drawn by some of the best artists in the field like Chaykin) .
Don't even get me started on Austen (you're correct, BTW, he used to write Uncanny). Let's just say he writes even MORE titles than Geoff Johns. Let's just say EVERYbody I know has told me they stink. Let's just say EVERY message board I have EVER seen REALLY hates his work. Let's just say this guy must really sell (or be somebody's nephew), because, like I said, he writes MORE titles than Johns every month.
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18/1/04, 13:17
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spsmith
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Re: 1602
Regarding the Books of Magic.I read the original series which I enjoyed but I haven't read the spin offs.I've liked Geoff Johns JSA but his Avengers stint was definitely under par.As far as Chuck Austin is concerned I don't rate him either,he seems to "kill off"every franchise he takes over.
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18/1/04, 14:52
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